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Premier fears Obama will force jobs out of Ontario

KAREN HOWLETT , GLORIA GALLOWAY and GREG KEENAN AND RICHARD BLACKWELL

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 8:36 PM EST 17/11/08

Dalton McGuinty says he is worried U.S. president-elect will tie aid for Detroit Three auto makers to repatriating jobs ...Read the full article

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  1. Apu Nahasapeemapetilon from Vancouver, Canada writes: I thought Canadians were head over heels in love with the Messiah. Obama and the Democrats are no friends of Canada.
  2. RS IslandReader from Canada writes: Its not fear it is a given.
  3. Just In from Canada writes: Lost cause. Don't waste your time. Go find some new business. Same would be bail out package offered to the highest bidder from around the world. Negotiate with multiple offers, not a brick wall.

    Make high speed trains instead. Possible opportunity, story here:

    theglobeandmail.com
  4. Misery No one from Toronto, Canada writes: Good for him that's what Presidents are for to protect their own. Would you expect anything less from our Government?
  5. Canuck in KL from KL, Malaysia writes: What about Canada's own ZENN electric car company? Investing a few billion in such a venture, maybe toss a billion to a home-grown Fuel Cell technology company or two and voila - the Canadian Auto Market is stabilized.
    Oh what do I hear, unions? Buzz buzz, Bob White, Bob Rae...... take another billion and retrain the workers while their out of date factories are refitted / re-tooled to produce energy efficient cars!
    See Al Gore's piece in the last Sunday NY Times, or here at

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/opinion/09gore.html?ex=1383886800&en=d122cebad6bb8596&ei=5124&partner=facebook&exprod=facebook
  6. J. Michael from Canada writes: You betcha - now Dalton is thinking.

    The Republicans have always been Canada's best friends. The Republicans are all about motivating Americans to compete (big challenge with a left wing Congress) - the Democrats will try to turn America into "Club Med"; and wonderfully subsidised on the backs of Canadians.
  7. Just In from Canada writes: Some in Michigan are looking to the future, not staring at the past.

    "Wind, solar power components may fuel Michigan's economy"

    http://blog.mlive.com/cns/2008/01/windsolarpowercomponentsma.html
  8. J. Michael from Canada writes: Misery No one from Toronto, Canada writes: "Good for him that's what Presidents are for to protect their own. Would you expect anything less from our Government?"

    I agree.

    The biggest mistake Bush made was once he had finished with the job of protecting Americans in Iraq, he then proceeded to take on the job of protecting Iraqis - not his job.

    However, in Bush's mind he was finishing a job that needed to be done so that in the future it would not threaten Americans, but rather be a good friend - Bush may prove to be right; in that way be credited for doing the President's job excellently.

    Obama must not lose sight of the fact that his key role is to protect Americans.
  9. roger price from Andorra writes: Just one question, how is helping the auto companies going to increase sales of new cars? Unless sales increase back to their historical levels then I cannot see how the car companies can survive unless they reduce costs per car without incurring a loss. Toyota is still profitable, lets back a winner and leave the losers to fail, thats the competative business way we do things. Giving tax payers money to support $73 an hour wage costs while competators pay $43 and make a profit is hard to justify in my books.
  10. Brian Dell from Hong Kong writes: What the govt is doing for financial institutions is not the same as sending money to the automakers.

    Sending money to the automakers is govt saying capital should be used to produce cars. That's a production decision better left to the private sector.

    Providing loan guarantees to financial intermediaries is not the same because that doesn't dictate what goods and services the economy should be providing (other than to say that more financial services should be provided, in particular extending credit, which isn't a bad thing when everyone agrees more credit should be supplied to the actual producers of goods and services). As such, the policy ground is much more sound, and McGuinty should not be equating the two.
  11. Pohaku Pohaku from Hawaii, United States writes: Here's the deal. If GM and Ford go belly up, as the Republicans want, then the companies get to bust the unions and renegotiate the contracts. Both US and Canadian autoworkers will get the shaft. Imagine trying to buy a house on half the wages a non union shop would offer. This would have major ripple effects in both economies. If the US bails them out as Obama wants, then the governement can mandate ideas like fuel efficiency and hybrids as a certain percent of the produciton. Obama has already stated a goal of 20% of the Federal fleet being hybrid within a year or 2, thus creating a market for the new cars. As for "Ameican content" and fear of it north of the border, 3 thoughts. 1. it hasn't happened, and no one has mentioned it yet.... "worrying is praying for something you don't want to happen" and 2. why is American content different then an acceptable Canadian content ( as in media) and 3. for everyone who wanted a weaker America... this is one of the results of a weaker America-less consumers to buy your goods, and more protectionism south of the border. Watch out what you wish for.. the results may not be anything you want.
  12. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Is it really worthwhile for the Ontario and/or Canadian government to throw good money after bad into the Detroit 3? Especially when the outcome of a US bailout would be GM, Ford and/or Chrysler filing bankruptcy anyways, delayed by six months thanks to public money, 'loans' that will not be repaid.

    It would be an ignominious end for GM, Ford and/or Chrysler to be lumped with past nationalized automakers like Trablant, Lada and Yugo.
  13. Canadian born Muslim from OTTAWA, Canada writes: Haha! This is hilarious. Everyone was so busy criticizing Bush that they forgot to realiz the economic importance his policed had on Canada. No matter how evil Bush was and how backwards McCain is, our lives would have been much better if the Republicans were elected. Now you have an ailing auto sector and a soon to come protectionst government that will not send any American funded jobs outside its borders. Under Obama, the loonie will become utterly worthless, Albertans will be forced to sell its oil to rogue countries out east when Obama says NO, our standard of living will decrease, etc etc. But that is what happens when my fellow Canadians criticize the current administration that actually did wonders for our country.
  14. Brian Dell from Hong Kong writes: Indeed, the next shoe to drop will be Americans saying no buying of Alberta's "dirty oil". As for Alberta's gas, it isn't being drilled anymore because of the Stelmach government's royalty increases.

    Economists (like at http://www.newsweek.com/id/168626/output/print ) have been warning about Obama but the media cheered him on because most of the media prints the equivalent of "People" and other lifestyle magazines. Obama is the "It Girl" of politics; everyone loves his style.
  15. D. Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: Following on from roger price from Andorra: It's worse than that roger- 'Giving tax payers money to support $73 an hour wage costs while competators pay $43 and make a profit is hard to justify in my books. ' Simple really, please pull out the average wage of the Autoworkers - to say nothing of when they are 'furloughed' for months/years they continue to receive pay and benefits and compare to the average wage of the Canadian taxpayer - all available in Ottawa -who are now being asked to provide further billions to keep the autoworkers and execs in the style they have long been accustomed. I think not. First the Auto industry downsizes its cars and its workers' and executives' pay, excess workers of all levels can happily join other Canadians 'making do' with normal UIC or find another job heaven forbid, then we can have this discussion once again. Cars aren't selling? Look to the sentence previous, and make something people wish to buy at the price they want to pay. Problem solved and by the way it is Auto's problem and NOT mine. If I like what I see at the price I like, I'll buy it. What's next, Timbits sales down a bit so Tim needs a measley $ 100 million from its tax paying customers and GST to boot? Nooooo, Basta !!!!!!
  16. D. Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: News Flash to Pohaku Pohaku from Hawaii, United States writes: Here's the deal. If GM and Ford go belly up, as the Republicans want, then the companies get to bust the unions and renegotiate the contracts. Both US and Canadian autoworkers will get the shaft. Imagine trying to buy a house on half the wages a non union shop would offer.

    Ummmm. PP, no need to imagine since that is what the average working person does in Canada and the US - buys a house on half the wages of an autoworker. It's called in most places, buying what you can afford. Says it all really, doesn't it?
  17. Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes:

    ...and israel fears he will force the relinquishing of huge terrirorial swaths... and the NRA fears he will cut off their bullet supplies... and everyone fears something else...

    the massive problem with this president-elect is that he gave noone any idea whatever of what he was going to do... and fooled enough people to vote for him... entirely on the basis of highly overhyped campaign imageries.

    obama still has no substance... and noone really knows what he will do... and the US had a very bad choice to make... proving that the democratic processes eventually can be highly unworkable.
  18. m. r. from Canada writes: the de-factory-ization of Ontario is now underway...and a Democrat
    Congress and Senate will further assist in shifting more plants to US. Obama may turn out to be a moderater in this matter.
    lower commodity prices and less manufacturing in Canada is a fact of the near future. it does not bode well.
  19. bob crier from Toronto, Canada writes: As he should. He has to do what is good for America and its people. Why doesn't Canada find new ventures to get into? Why do we have to build cars for American companies and rely on them for our jobs? Screw em!! Lets invest more money in research and development, have good business sense and focus on leading in the areas of research and development, and build end products on Canadian soil and export them. Keep Canadian technology and innovation ahead of other countries and reap the benefits. Too much reliance on American businesses and consumption of cheap (and total crap) goods from China have put us in this state.
  20. John Adkins from Poland writes: Wait - someone might lose their job?!?!?! In the age of OBAMA?!?!?!?
  21. CallofDuty . from Toronto, Canada writes: It was going to happen no matter who was going to the White House. Wake up Canada.
  22. Wilma Guywin from Allover Canada, Canada writes: Brian Dell from Hong Kong writes: Indeed, the next shoe to drop will be Americans saying no buying of Alberta's "dirty oil". As for Alberta's gas, it isn't being drilled anymore because of the Stelmach government's royalty increases

    You are wrong. Down 9% is a far cry from none.

    For 2009, PSAC estimates there will be 10,400 wells drilled in Alberta, down by nine per cent. B.C.'s 1,150 wells represent an increase of 29 per cent over 2008 drilling levels. Saskatchewan's drilling rate for 2009 will see a nine per cent increase to 4,725 wells.
  23. Pohaku Pohaku from Hawaii, United States writes: to D Smith "Ummmm. PP, no need to imagine since that is what the average working person does in Canada and the US - buys a house on half the wages of an autoworker. It's called in most places, buying what you can afford. Says it all really, doesn't it?
    and they don't seem to be doing so well on half the wages now do they? Since anyone who makes less then a union wage seems to be handing their keys back en masse.... service industry wages ( non union, lower pay) can;t afford rent, non the less mortgages. I don't know of any Dunkin Donut or MacDonald's employees buying houses, do you? No house buying, no construction jobs. No construcion jobs, no lumber being bought from Ontario or BC. No appliances being bought from Ontario. it's the snowball effect. Canada is just at the top of the hill right now, starting to gather momentum as it goes down, behind Euroland and the US. Globalization always takes it to the lowest common denominator wage wise. Its great for China and India. Bad for the the western countries like Canada and the US.
  24. C. M. from London, Ontario, Canada writes: roger price from Andorra wrote: "Just one question, how is helping the auto companies going to increase sales of new cars? Unless sales increase back to their historical levels then I cannot see how the car companies can survive unless they reduce costs per car without incurring a loss. Toyota is still profitable, lets back a winner and leave the losers to fail, thats the competative business way we do things. Giving tax payers money to support $73 an hour wage costs while competators pay $43 and make a profit is hard to justify in my books."
    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
    My thoughts EXACTLY !! Cudos as well to our Minister Tony Clement for asking what the CAW is going to do. Why are they so strangely silent ? I'd tie any aid to the excessively paid workers taking a major wage cut.
  25. Robert Dryburgh from Winnipeg, Canada writes: I think as time goes by and reality sets in, the shiny Obama will tarnish rapidly on both sides of the border. All that glitters is not gold.
  26. C. M. from London, Ontario, Canada writes: Pohaku Pohaku...that's a great idea !!! We'll start paying Dunkin Donuts and MacDonald's employees $73 an hour ...heavily subsidized by taxpayers, to making sh!tty coffee that can't compete with better Asian coffee. Think of all the houses people would buy !!
  27. George Levecque from Fergus, Ontario, Canada writes: The German government when asked by GM in Germany where told No! In no uncertain terms are they giving Money to GM, after all its a Foreign
    company in Germany! Makes one think dloesn't it!
  28. Don Adams The Centrist Conservative from Canada writes: Pohaku....... it's not how much money you make, but how you manage the money you make that counts.

    Yes, 2 people working for minimum wage CAN own a home..... I admit it does take longer, but, it can be done..... we see it all the time around here.
  29. D Le5 from Canada writes: Yes yes Bush has been a boon for Canada....
    At least let Obama take office officially before you let your bias show. He'll make some good decisions and some bad just like any other.

    If we can't adapt then it is our fault not his.

    The republicans had their chance and blew it royally. Obama has bigger problems to resolve.
  30. Tom Beckett from Canada writes: No Bailout of the Auto Industry!!!!

    Finance the retraining of the employees

    Invest in infrastructure programs and hire them to do the work

    Find 21st century companies to invest into, taking an equity position, in such fields as wind energy and solar power.
  31. Gossy Motto from Amherstburg, Canada writes: What do Ford, GM, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, VW, all have in common? They are all foreign auto makers providing jobs for Canadians.

    2 glaring differences - The last 3 listed aren't begging for aid
    - The last 3 are burdened with unions

    Bailing out the banks was an easy decision because they can flip a switch and change their business model over night. They don't deserve to be bailed out but it had to be done for the greater good.

    Bailing out the automakers is throwing good money after bad. They can't change quickly enough and by spring they will be begging for more.

    If GM goes into bankruptcy protection it may be they only way that they can restructure completely, lose the union, and climb back out.
  32. john shantz from Canada writes: the CAW should have thought ahead when they negotiated their last package. "Pigs get fat........... hogs get slaughtered."
  33. willie s from Canada writes: Maybe McGuinty will pass a law banning Obama
  34. I_Hate_David Miller from Toronto, Canada writes: Dalton has no grasp on reality. Let the Big 3 go bankrupt...they basically are already...then merge them into one large company without the union agreements that bankrupted them in the first place.
  35. john shantz from Canada writes: Seems to me that pro Obama sentiment in Ontario/Quebec ran at over 80% prior to the election. Be careful what you ask for......you might get i!
  36. Michael Powers from Canada writes: Our Government, both Federal & Provincal, should come to the aid of these automobile companies and do it fast.

    Billions of dollars should flow on demand to these companies so that all of the C.A.W. jobs will remain in the country.

    This money should be available the day after the C.A.W. union workers accept salary and benefit reductions to the level of the non-unionized car companies in Canada.

    We all have to do our part to save these jobs - don't we?
  37. JACK V from Canada writes: Don't worry Mc Guinty will give the natives the auto sector, just like he did the tobacco industry . When you pick-up your tax FREE smokes, you will be able to buy your tax FREE car, and fill-up with tax FREE gas .''Isn't live sweat''
  38. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: Before govts both federal and provincially give out money to the automakers, I have one concept - auto pact.
    An auto pact ensures that products sold here are made in Canada. And we can now add - Green auto pact - made in Canada for our home grown green economy.
  39. Duane Freemantle from writes: The Premier's fears are unfounded. One has to wonder what his real political goals are. Obama knows that Canada is the U.S.A's number 1 trading partner and a valuable partner. Policy shifts in America has come from lobby groups. It seems more that the Premier is trying to shift blame to the American, and trying to force Harper to give Ontario more money. It seems enough Canadians are not falling for McGuinty's ploy.
  40. Proud Newfoundlander from Republic of Newfoundland, Canada writes: Brian Dell from Hong Kong writes: Indeed, the next shoe to drop will be Americans saying no buying of Alberta's "dirty oil". As for Alberta's gas, it isn't being drilled anymore because of the Stelmach government's royalty increases

    -------------

    Brian Canada is the largest supplier of Crude oil and refined oil products to the US by a large margin. We export almost 1 Million barrels a day to the us more than the next supplier Suudi Arabia. If they refuse to buy oil from us where are they going to get it? How are they going to replace the 2.4 Million barrels of petrolium products we send them each day?

    That is why this arguement has no merit.
  41. CC Rider from Toronto, Canada writes: For the first time in a long time, McGinty is right......the "anointed" one who thinks he is president already will be a protectionist when it come to the economy.......and the rest of his election promises will cost the Americans billions, a raise in taxes, more government control and intervention..........BO will prove to be not the next messiah, but all talk and very little action on the "meat" of his election promises.....typical of politicians who want to get elected.....say anything, do a few election promises.......same old, same old.....
  42. Seasoned Warrior from The End of the world as we have known it., Canada writes: Let GM go - they are going downhill no matter how much money is thrown at them. We need to be ensuring that successful firms like Toyota stay here and prosper. Put our money on the winners not the losers.
  43. deliciously uncanadian from Canada writes: In Dalton's bubble everybody is to blame for Ontario's decline -- except his own government.

    And so we will be propping up dead companies with public funds, pissing off their more productive competitors just when we least can afford it. Why would Toyota or Honda keep investing here if we insist on showing off our preference for their US competitors?

    Finally, icing on the cake, we'll spend some more treasure to ensure no one buys those previously subsidized cars as they emit too much carbon dioxide.
  44. Proud Newfoundlander from Republic of Newfoundland, Canada writes: I think there is a lot of misinformation going on here. I highly doubt that ANY assembly line workers in Canada working for GM or any other auto maker are making 77 dollars an hour. The average hourly wage at the Big 3 Auto makers is around $36 an hour.

    The wages at the import plants arereletively the same. The difference is the fact that the big 3 have been around so long they have way more retired workers and older workers that cost them more in pensions and healthcare.

    It is not that the imports companies are run better, they just have a competitive advantage because they haven't been in the market as long and the cost of the pensions and healthcare and vacation is not as big.

    Lets haev a little perspective here folks.
  45. Fred Draper from Kingston, Canada writes: Duane Freemantle from writes: The Premier's fears are unfounded. One has to wonder what his real political goals are
    _____________________________________________________

    I'm with you, Duane. The timing's more than a little coincidental. I doubt it's true, there have been precious few conditions on any of the assistance to the US banks so far.

    And EVEN IF TRUE, what's the solution? Out aid Obama? Theat's beyond our capability even if it made sense.

    One thing's for sure: I'd rather have Flaherty and Harper in there negotiating than Dalton! He'd give it away, WAY too easily.

  46. just a tax paying citizen from Canada writes: Dalton McGuinty and Jack Layton are dangerous to the citizenry of Ontario and Canada. Layton doesn't want corporate tax cuts but he supports corporate welfare -- for companies with a high proportion of union jobs. McGuinty's policies have made it more expensive and difficult to do business in Ontario. Now they're wailing for handouts to the auto sector. What about the mining sector, or the pulp and paper sector, or the steel industry, or energy sector (and I'm not talking about Alberta's energy sector but Ontario's -- remember Dalton's pitbull Smitherman says he "won't even consider" building more nuclear plants in Ontario - for a cheaper, cleaner, renewable source of energy - and good for jobs too). Where does it end. This economic and fiscal regime only works if mismanaged companies are allowed to fail. The auto sector has been grossly mismanaged for decades and the unions' sense of entitlement is outrageous. Not a penny should be proferred, and let the chips fall where they may. The pinheads that run these companies and this province should have realized long ago that THEY needed to take some action to correct their situations. Don't look to mom and pop, the average taxpayer, to support ridculously high union salaries or ludicrous and misdirected political policies aimed more at vote garnering that solving a financial problem.
  47. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: From the article: "Premier fears Obama will force jobs out of Ontario"

    No need to wait for Obama on this one, McGuinty is forcing jobs out of Ontario all on his own!

    Hint to McGuinty: The auto sector jobs are GONE no matter how much money we throw at them. They WILL leave, no question about it. You can either throw them billions of dollars on their way out their door or use those billions wisely to reduce corporate taxes and attract new jobs to replace them. Even the best 'concessions' you might wrest from the auto makers are only going to delay WHEN they leave, not if they will leave.
  48. Proud Newfoundlander from Republic of Newfoundland, Canada writes: Seasoned Warrior from The End of the world as we have known it., Canada writes: Let GM go - they are going downhill no matter how much money is thrown at them. We need to be ensuring that successful firms like Toyota stay here and prosper. Put our money on the winners not the losers

    ---------------

    Why do you think Toyota are sucessful and GM is not? They both pay around the same wages to their employees. The difference is the overhead. GM, FORD and Chrysler have huge pension and healthcare cost that Toyota doesn't YET.

    The reason they don't have them is because they haven't been around as long. Eventually they will run into the same problems.
  49. scott w from Canada writes: Michael Powers -- "all do our part". Touche. CAW is looking for 1-way subsidies.

    Freemantle: Agreed to the Dem's "NAFTA" means Mexico -- but they really don't care about the impact on Canada. Border and trade access got more strategically important last week than 2 weeks ago.

    McGuinty's industrial policy of auto industry at the expense of all other is now looking seriously flawed. While every other auto economy diversified we concentrated -- all to satisfy Buzz and the boys. Now people get Flaherty's comments about investing in Ontario.

    Again the only difference between Rae's years and McGuinty's has been a strong Alberta economy. Should be an interesting year next year. Maybe the private sector should call lay-offs "Dalton Days". ;)
  50. James Marshall from Canada writes: There is no question that we need the auto industry in Ontario and Canada but isn't the real problem that people are not buying the vehicles that the Big 3 are producing. Isn't it up to the auto companies to determine how they will produce vehicles that people will buy and not the ones that are sitting on dealer's lots at present. We have an economic crisis first and foremost and until this is addressed, both in the U.S. and Canada, giving money to the Big 3 will only ascerbate the problem.
  51. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: Michael Powers from Canada writes: "This money should be available the day after the C.A.W. union workers accept salary and benefit reductions to the level of the non-unionized car companies in Canada."

    CAW wages are already essentially identical to those of non-unionized car companies. The benefits are a bit better, but not by much.

    The REAL difference in costs between CAW and non-unionized factories has NOTHING to do with wages and benefits. It simply costs more to employ a unionized employee than a non-unionized one because there is so much more overhead, legal work, contracts and lack of flexibility with unions.

    THAT is where the problem lies, not in wages and benefits. No amount of wage or benefit cuts are going to fix the problems the auto makers have with the unions. One of the ONLY useful comments Buzz Hargrove ever said was along the lines of "Even if we worked for free the plant still wouldn't be profitable". What Hargrove failed to mention is that his union was a key part of the reason for that.
  52. Dave AAA from Canada writes: Sounds like another fisheries to me. Pouring good money after bad never ends well.
  53. forty sum from Canada writes: Harper and his rich friends did not want to cut emmissions so Obama will do it for him.

    Is Green Obama a threat to oilsands?

    Will he fall for Harper's attempt to exempt Alberta's 'dirty oil'?

    November 12, 2008
    Gwynne Dyer
    Independent

    (Nov 12, 2008)

    U.S. president-elect Barack Obama has inherited the inbox from hell, but you could practically smell the fear in some other quarters as he listed his top priorities in his victory speech in Chicago: "two wars, a planet in peril, the worst financial crisis in a century."
  54. The Real PS from Canada writes: “I'd like to get a Ford Civic equivalent and a GM Civic equivalent and a Chrysler equivalent,” he said.

    Guess what, so would Ford, GM and Chrysler...
  55. Spending our money from Canada writes: When in a crunch,Americans will stand for America and fellow Americans.
    Obama will bail out the auto sector and in return the auto sector will give Obama jobs for Americans.
    Canada's auto sector is owned by foreign companies and has no national company of it's own.
    One of the few countries in the world that doesn't.Even India and China have their own auto companies.
    Canada,in order to survive with it's auto sector must give companies like Magna and Zenn a hand in developing their cars if they want a manufacturing sector to thrive or even to exist in this country.
  56. Tony Sarnia from Sarnia, Canada writes: I too feel we should be cautious where tax dollars are spent.
    Didn't Harper buy votes to assure his Winsor Area MP's would get back in with a $80 million contribution to Ford?

    We should support Toyota and Honda and their suppliers.
    We should take over a plant Ford or GM closes to produce a vehicle Canada needs, with the union.

    If the US revises the auto pact to look after themselves then we should do the same.

    Canadians are still buying, if the US doesn't appreciate that lets see our government advertise with vehicles help Canada the most and we should buy those.
  57. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: roger price from Andorra writes: "Giving tax payers money to support $73 an hour wage costs while competators pay $43 and make a profit is hard to justify in my books."

    It's been said a thousand times before, but apperently it still hasn't sunk in:

    GM DOES NOT PAY $73 AN HOUR

    The $73/hour figure is COST TO EMPLOY. Wages typically make up between 1/2 to 1/3rd of the cost to employ someone. In a unionized business you can guarantee that it will be on the high side of that figure.

    Real average wages for CAW employees are about $20-$25/hour. Some with seniority will be making more like $30 to $40 an hour tops. The people who are making over $100,000 working in an auto assembly plant do so by working a LOT of overtime (much like story of the TTC ticket collector who was paid $110,000, he did so by working close to 70 hour weeks).
  58. The Real PS from Canada writes: Proud Newfoundlander from Republic of Newfoundland, ---------------

    Why do you think Toyota are sucessful and GM is not? They both pay around the same wages to their employees. The difference is the overhead. GM, FORD and Chrysler have huge pension and healthcare cost that Toyota doesn't YET.
    .
    I take it you haven't driven a Toyota or a GM lately?
    .
    Toyota builds cars that to the most part are unexciting but brilliantly designed by engineers.
    .
    GM, to the most part builds unexciting cars badly designed by accountants (despite Lutz' best efforts).
  59. Dream On from Toronto, Canada writes: Didn't Canadians listen to what Obama was saying? His US audience understood him very well. He'll repatriate jobs, renegotiate NAFTA, and if this drives up the Canadian unemployment rate, that's not his problem. Obama made it very very clear that Canada was a target, not an ally.

    Obama is superb for the US; disastrous for Canada.
  60. dale spinx from Canada writes: Obama can have this problem. The big three were struggling long before this financial crisis. If they were profitable before all this took place, I would consider it, but the fact of the matter is the big three were run into the ground a long time ago. The government needs to let these weak links go and look at this as a chance to start something new in Ontario.
  61. Gregory W. Barker from Peterborough, Canada writes: Hello McGuinty...wake up,new world,new economy,maybe try to look forward and do something for this province...
  62. North of the Border from Canada writes: "Imagine trying to buy a house on half the wages a non union shop would offer."? Yeah imagine that. Half the wages? My god they're now poor?!?! Hardly. Know anyone in a union? I do and they make a damn good dollar. God forbid they now have to knock off buying luxuries many of us can't afford anyways or their spouse now have to take up a job. Proud Newfoundlander from Republic of Newfoundland : you might want to talk to some of the ones working in those places. Take into account the high pay they get and then any overtime is time and a half or double. I know people working in non-unionized manufacturing companies making a good $25 making low cost items. To hear $77/hour if they are making anything of value and in a union doesn't surprise at all. George Levecque from Fergus, Ontario : the German government did? Of course they did. They have their "own" auto industry. What does Canada have? Nothing. We have foreign auto manufacturers and nothing more. There is absolutely no loyalty to Canada like German manufacturers have to their own country. Saying no to giving money to GM would differ from the situation Canada is in. Maybe with all our resources we could start up our own auto manufacturer. Let's see, there's a Lincoln so we could have a Trudeau? The Beetle? We could have the Beaver. The Ranger? How about the Trapper? The Escape? Hmmmm. The ehScape?
  63. just a tax paying citizen from Canada writes: The case study for Dalton's and Jack's and Buzz's plea for tax dollars to be thrown at the auto sector (or "loaned" or "invested" as they would cal it) is Massey Ferguson. Remember them, or the successor company, Varity.

    All those tax dollars and government loans got thrown at them to keep those jobs in Canada during a similarly troubling time in the late 70's and early 80's. MF was the "golden haired boy" of Canadian industry. Too many jobs to lose. Too big to fail. too many widows and orphans as shareholders. Ontario's and Canada's government believed the hype and ponied up. For nothing!

    What happened to Varity? They packed up, thumbed their nose at Canadian workers and tax payers, abandoned their obligations to pay Canadian pensioners and moved everything to Buffalo. Why? Because the government of NewYork state and Buffalo offered them loan guarantees, handouts and tax breaks. What next you ask.

    Within a couple of years Varity did the same thing to Buffalo, NY state and the US and packed up and moved to the U.K.

    Ask a former Massey Ferguson employee what he thinks about government handouts and how they save jobs or pensions. You won't like what you hear.
  64. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Headline: "Premier fears Obama will force jobs out of Ontario"

    Then the story doesn't deal with what could potentially happen and Obama's stand on trade and economic issues. This should send a chill direct from Obama website

    http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/index.php

    Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama and Biden believe that NAFTA and its potential were oversold to the American people. They will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix NAFTA so that it works for American workers.

    Reward Companies that Support American Workers: Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 with Senators Richard Durbin (D-IL) and Sherrod Brown (D-OH) to reward companies that create good jobs with good benefits for American workers. The legislation would provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America if it has ever been in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.
    .
  65. forty sum from Canada writes: GM's Ceo's make $1000.00 per hour plus bonuses, no complaints there. "oh thats right they are conservative supporters, so it's okay"
  66. David Simon from Canada writes: 'Premier fears Obama will force jobs out of Ontario'.

    And McGuinty had been doing so well on his own.
  67. Proud Newfoundlander from Republic of Newfoundland, Canada writes: forty sum from Canada writes: Harper and his rich friends did not want to cut emmissions so Obama will do it for him.

    Is Green Obama a threat to oilsands?

    Will he fall for Harper's attempt to exempt Alberta's 'dirty oil'?

    --------------

    If you think the US is going to stop buying oil from Canada you are just denying the reality of the situation.

    Canada supplies 2.4M barrels of petrolium products a day to the United States. That is almost 1M barrels a day more then the next largest supplier Saudia Arabia 1.5M barrels a day.

    I am sure it is cheaper to get the oil from Canada as it is done primarily through pipeline, where as almost everything else they get comes by tanker.

    If Canada can increase production to the US to 5M barrels a day they will buy it, anyone who thinks they are going to refuse Canadian Oil are just denying the realities.
  68. JACK V from Canada writes: If the auto sector FAILS and jobs leave ,remember Mr Mc Guinty is safe for another 3 years, then he receives a huge pension, thanks to some ontario voters
  69. JD Would from Calgary, Canada writes: Be careful what you ask for.
    ---
    All the folks in Canada thought that President Obama would shut down the evil 'tar' sands. Guess again, he is going to shut down the Ontario auto industry. You can move the auto industry, you cannot move the oil sands..
    ---
    President Obama got elected with the help of Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Penn, Wisconsin. He didn't get elected with the help of Ontario.
    ---
    People of Canada wanted President Obama, now you have him.
  70. JD Would from Calgary, Canada writes: forty sum from Canada writes: GM's Ceo's make $1000.00 per hour plus bonuses, no complaints there. "oh thats right they are conservative supporters, so it's okay"
    ----------------
    sigh*
    I understand that Belinda Stronach and Frank Stronach, being liberals, limit their pay to $150,000 a year.
    ---
    One of the reasons that the Liberal party does not have money is that Mr. Chretien outlawed 'large' donations from big business (Ford, GM) and unions (CAW). GM received more money from Liberals than Tories, just ask Mr. Hargrove.
    ---
    *sigh
  71. Dave AAA from Canada writes: Lets stop playing the blame game and get down to making good business decisions. It doesn't really matter why the big 3 are in trouble. We can all point fingers as to why, but the fact is that they are longer viable for whatever reason. It's time to be face reality instead of pretending that some temporary bail out is going to fix the all the underlying issues.

    Autoworkers do yourselves a big favour and get retrained. The end is near.
  72. Wayne Walker from Canada writes: One of the reasons that auto sales have fallen so steeply is that GM and others have stopped leasing and it is more difficult to get a car loan from a bank much less GMAC or Ford Credit which cannot raise the capital. That is a fall out from the liquidity crisis and is an issue which governments can address. When bailing out the banks they should be demanding some results. Why give all this money to banks if they are not willing to get back in the saddle and provide some liquidity to the economy? I don't think that taxpayers should be asked to dump billions into companies which will just lose the money and be back with their hands out for more help in another 12 months. I do see some merit in buying shares in GMAC, FCC and others so that people who want to buy vehicles can get financing. As taxpayers we will have a much better chance of getting our money back from consumers who buy cars than from the manufacturers who just have to restructure to survive.
  73. Wayne Walker from Canada writes: Jack Layton has now completed the most ignorant policy choice available. He will tax the successful and use their money to support losers. Anything for the union vote.
  74. Ray Crawford from Toronto, Canada writes: JD Would: Man, you are right on!!! The US of A doesn't need anything that's built in Eastern Canada. All these left-of-center liberals who swooned over Obama are in for a shocking reality check in January. Ontario, under McQuinty, is becoming an economic basket case just like Quebec that's kept afloat with Western Canadian money.
  75. A reader from Canada writes: I'm against bailing out GM. Even if the federal and provincial government bailed them out, why would I buy a car from a company on the verge of bankrupcy? Servicing will be a problem and when it comes time to trade-in the vehicle, I'll get next to nothing for it.
  76. forty sum from Canada writes: "sigh" and Harper gave the Alberta oil industry $5 billion dollars of taxpayers money, "sigh" because he could, "sigh" they were not making enough money, then he gave the Banks $75 Billion because they too are not able to collect more interest from there customers because they are out of work, "sigh", now it is only you rich guys that can buy foreign cars and those big SUV's and Audi's you pick your children up at school with.
  77. Art Vandelai from Burlington, Canada writes: If we really want to maintain a domestic auto industry, why not buy the plants that the US firms can no longer afford to run, and offer them to willing domestic manufacturers like Zenn?
  78. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes: Giving the Detroit-3 taxpayer money without bankruptcy and profound change will only preserve current sinecures, ensure future raids on the public purse and result in a slow death. GM, for example, urgently needs to rehabilitate its business model to design and produce quality cars the market will buy at a profit. It must replace its current senior management, shutter all but the Chevrolet and Cadillac divisions, reduce the number of dealers, and pare excessive labor costs. Bankruptcy will provide essential breathing room by forgiving debt and preserving needed assets removing insurmountable barriers to restored productivity.
  79. If I had a million lobsters from Halifax, Canada writes: Ray Crawford from Toronto, Canada writes: JD Would: Man, you are right on!!! The US of A doesn't need anything that's built in Eastern Canada. All these left-of-center liberals who swooned over Obama are in for a shocking reality check in January. Ontario, under McQuinty, is becoming an economic basket case just like Quebec that's kept afloat with Western Canadian money.

    ____________________________________________________

    Ray it wouldn't matter who was in power - Left or Right, this is survival of the fittest and protectionism is the next step in the political process as the electorate and their politicians clammer for jobs.

    Politicians including Obama, McQuinty,Harper, etc in Canada will have no choice but to recreate the Smoot Hawley Act to protect domestic industry from oblivion. It is my suspicion that China and other countries will start to dump their products into the US and Canada igniting a trade war.

    It is simply the next step in the great unwind we are seeing. Save you silver coins you'll need them.
  80. Jimmy L from Sherbrooke, Canada writes: I just hope that Canada won't give a penny to auto makers and I hope that we will stop shipping them oil and selling them electricity if they start the protectionism game..
  81. If I had a million lobsters from Halifax, Canada writes: Oh and buy a gun, you'll need it to protect your family and property.

    Extreme? Absolutely!

    William Giles on another board posted this............... The great unwind includes a Great Unrest.

    http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47157
  82. Stan L from Canada writes: Canuck in KL from KL, Malaysia writes: What about Canada's own ZENN electric car company? Investing a few billion in such a venture, maybe toss a billion to a home-grown Fuel Cell technology company or two and voila - the Canadian Auto Market is stabilized.

    Art Vandelai from Burlington, Canada writes: If we really want to maintain a domestic auto industry, why not buy the plants that the US firms can no longer afford to run, and offer them to willing domestic manufacturers like Zenn?

    Instead of the government propping up a dying and unmanageable business model.....why can't the money go towards re-inventing the wheel so to speak? I know it may seem naive....and I know that traditional Conservatives would be shaking at evena whiff of 'crown corporation'....but any reason why it wouldn't work? Any thoughts?
  83. Buddy Rich from Toronto, Canada writes: High speed train...that's a good start...and change is in the plan.
    It'll be a give and take like the auto sector, will go for example but a give in technology...remember the Clinton era...loook who is surrounding Obama and just make a wild guess...
  84. Dave AAA from Canada writes: Gov't dollars = taxpayers dollars=you and me. Therefore, I suggest that those in favour of a bail out start by transferring some their own money to GM. I'm sure they would be happy to recieve it. To pretend that it is in the country's best interest to bail out a non-viable business is a load of crap. This is nothing more big political game and we will all lose if we allow this type of nonsense to continue. Move on people.
  85. forty sum from Canada writes: They will sell them oil no matter what happens, in Calgary alone there are 50,000 americans living, if you listen to an Albertan Trudeau supposedly caused the americans to take over the oil there, not the recession of that era. Wonder who they will blame now? everybody else But themselves, same old same old.
  86. JD Would from Calgary, Canada writes: forty sum from Canada writes: "sigh" and Harper gave the Alberta oil industry $5 billion dollars of taxpayers money, ---- Alberta, and now Sask and BC contributed over $10 billion each year in transfer payments over the last 5-10 years. I don't know where you got your info about a $5 billion tax 'break'. But even if that is true, it a good investment, invest $5 billion get $50 billion is pretty good return. --- Unlike the Welfare case of Ontario, invest the $45 billion from the west into Belinda Stonach's Magna, GM, Cry-sler, Ford, Mr. Paul Martin's Panamanian Flagged Canadian Steamships and Bombardier, get $1. Not a good return. --- The banks are based in Toronto, not the West. You can just ask the Liberal party. Mr. McKenna, a Liberal, is a senior VP of Toronto Dominion. Mr. McCallum, a Liberal MP, is a former senior exec at Royal Bank. --- You rich guys...ok. I make $55 / hour. Auto workers with 2 years experience make $78 / hour. You guys are rich, now you have to pay. --- I don't have an Audi, I have an 11 year old Ford Taurus. It works (still), even though it has a crappy transmission, and brakes. It was built in Chicago, President Obama's hometown. --- Ms. Copps was on Mike Duffy Live yesterday. When she was environment minister, she said she had a blueprint to help GM, Ford and Cry-sler to build fuel efficient, envrionmentally friendlier, world class cars....*in 1993*. Things will never change. People who fail will always want money from people who don't, but they will drag both down.
  87. Dave AAA from Canada writes: Hey Stan, I have an idea. If you think that Zenn has a good model then YOU invest. There seems to be enough of you people out there that believe gov't money grows on trees love to spend it freely. Maybe if you all got together you could fund it yourself and live happily ever after. Just please leave my portion alone.
  88. Wilma Guywin from Allover Canada, Canada writes: SUV sales are on the rise again in the US due to low gas prices.
  89. Stan L from Canada writes: Dave AAA from Canada writes: Hey Stan, I have an idea. If you think that Zenn has a good model then YOU invest. There seems to be enough of you people out there that believe gov't money grows on trees love to spend it freely. Maybe if you all got together you could fund it yourself and live happily ever after. Just please leave my portion alone.

    Dave, thanks for the 'insight' but the reality is that doing nothing is not an option. The auto companies going under will take a lot down with them and even if that weren't true...how long can Ontario and Quebec affored to pay out unemplymnet benefits to thousands?......in short Dave you will pay one way or another, like it or not. We can do a bail-out which will be easier but unrelliable that we would get our colllective ROI and risky in that the business is really at the mercy of the americans.....OR we can (as I say, reinvent the wheel. Come up with a Canadian solution, slap down some benefits to buying Canadians and see what happens.......OR we can 'transition ourselves out of manufacturing particularily where the control is out of the country.......but Dave doing nothing is not an option.
  90. M Nolz from Toronto, Canada writes: Duh!

    Only a Liberal/Dipper would be surprised by this. Democrats are far more protectionist than Republicans given the Dems LOVE unions!