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Auto execs plea for lifeline to stave off total collapse

BARRIE MCKENNA

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 9:01 PM EST 19/11/08

Big Three seek $25-billion rescue from skeptical Senate; Ontario joins call for help ...Read the full article

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  1. Alec Robertson from Riverdale, Canada writes: The three horsemen of the 'a-car-collapse'
  2. Chilled One from Canada writes: Lets nationalize the car companies, the oil companies, the banks, the insurance companies............. Stalin must be rolling over in his box. Unfettered capitalism has worked so well.
  3. Ray Luft from Mississauga, Canada writes: How much money is Buick paying the crippled golfer to promote their cars? In Canada, we have Chevrolet bankrolling an old broken down hockey player. We should bail out the American car companies for why? Because they're such astute marketers?

    Maybe they should just sponsor a few more golf tournaments or tennis tournaments or whatever has been selling all of those cars for them.
  4. k o from Canada writes: So let's see - is it more important to be a terribly run company / industry or to have made yourself indispensable? Time will tell but I'm guessing with elections recently decided, politicians will opt for punishing the former rather than rewarding the latter. Just my two cents.
  5. A A from Canada writes: This sucks. These Jack asses who thrive and beleive in free market capitalism are now looking for Comrade Pelosi and company to bail them out?

    These automakers screwed up, it's plain and simple! They relied too much on high margin SUV's and had not contingency plan for rising oil prices!!! These guys got greedy and were too arrogant to beleive that cars would sell again.

    US companies have no global forsight! Ugh this makes me mad!!!!
  6. Ann Ig Norant from Wonderland, Canada writes: I love all the fear mongering.
  7. joe kelly from Canada writes: Bankruptcy blackmail, the new game in town.
  8. Gerry Pankhurst from Westport Ontario, Canada writes: I continue the opinion that any tax payers' money should be directed to re-training and even relocating the over paid under achievers on the assembly line. And nothing for the overpaid gang in the executive suites.

    If there is money left put it into the re-tooling of the factories and make them available to the Japanese manufacturers who have proven their ability to produce what the consumers want both as to quality and value.
  9. R W from Canada writes: Any bailout needs to be tied to business plans that show a chnage in strategy from huge, gas guzzling monsters to cars that are in tune with the times. Throwing money at status quo is unacceptable.
  10. K D from Canada writes:
    There is no doubt that any of these three companies with have very negative effects on Ontario. It will be a disaster and they must be saved. I think it should be noted that government support for auto companies is not unusual, Korea, Japan and Germany have all done it in the past in a big way.
  11. Andrei Popov from NYC, United States writes:
    'catastrophic collapse' ...so be it.

    If they can't manage their own money, what do you think the'll do with ours...
  12. K D from Canada writes:
    RW : The move away from 'gas guzzlers' has been underway for a few years now. That said, people still demanded pick-ups and big SUVs until early 2007 in a big way. The spike in gas prices was the only way to change that habit. It was a good thing but it hurt the companies that made those trucks we wanted for so many years. People always forget that the vehicle market was 50% trucks for the first half of this decade.
  13. Mr. Anderson from Toronto, HaveNOTario, Canada writes: Goodbye cruel world,
    I'm leaving you today,
    Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye

    Goodbye cruel world,
    There's nothing you can say,
    To make me change my mind,
    (except a 25-billion infusion)
    Goodbye.

    Lyrics by Roger Waters, music by Pink Floyd and David Gilmour.
    Additional lyrics by GM, Ford, Chrysler (aka 'little three', UAW & CAW.
  14. k o from Canada writes: For these companies to be threatening economies reminds me of politicians warning of the evils of electing the other guy. I would love to heat them talk about what they will do to improve thier lots. Instead, their fear-mongering shows it is time for a change.
  15. Allan Eizinas from Simcoe, Canada writes: There is a successful precedent; In 1979 Lee Iacocca suddenly found himself in charge of auto giant Chrysler which was on its way to bankruptcy. He understood that the company had to change direction and would require financing that was not available at that time. He approached the American government and convinced Congress that he had a new plan; wages were to be frozen, the workforce was slashed, the company would re-tool to create the K-Car line, the Dodge Aries and Plymouth Reliant in 1981. The groundbreaking mini-van was to come within 2 years. He also pegged his personal salary at 1$ a year - an initiaive that the current CEO's might consider. Congress was convinced and guaranteed up to $1.2 billion for this proposal. Iacocca was able to get his money, fulfill his promises and had the company back on its feet and once again a profit maker. The loan was fully repaid within 5 years. To-day the Big 3 are asking for addition taxpayer money to stay afloat but I do not see their new proposals. I believe that a sound business plan would have to be presented as to future production models and major concessions made by the unions – then, and only then should our federal government begin to consider guaranteeing loans. You have a car that is beginning to burn more and more oil and is beginning to make strange noises. You have one of two choices; 1. You can investigate the cause of the problem, repair the problem and then add as much new oil as required for the engine to run. 2. You can stop adding oil and drive the car until it destroys itself. If you just keep adding more and more new oil without changing anything then all you are doing is wasting it and your car will soon destroy itself anyway. Our auto industry is 'leaking oil'. I still do not see anyone trying to find the problem so that they can fix it.
  16. Sally Struthers from Canada writes: Collapse away, losers!!!
  17. randy smith from Kitchener, writes: Let the oil companies bail them out, they need them more than anyone else does.
  18. k o from Canada writes: Anyone seen the movie 'Whatever Happened to the Electric Car'? GM is and always has been in busniess with the oil companies, plain and simple. Because of those ties that bind, there is no way they can make any reasonable proposals for how to adopt for a less gas-guzzling world.
  19. joe kelly from Canada writes: 'CAPITALISM' (def.): An economic system with asymmetrical returns.

    As in, when the going is good, demand that government: a) reduce taxes: b) eliminate regulation: c) ease-off on environmental, financial controls standards, etc.; and d) generally tell government to 'get off our backs'. Repeat mantra 'I earned my $25 million in compensation and worked too hard to have Washington/Ottawa/Rangoon squander my money'. Heads I win.

    When the going gets tough, reverse course on above points. Demand help; threaten 'catastrophic consequences'; plead for TAX MONEY (hee hee, must keep straight face); demand regulatory intervention such as tariffs; etc & etc. Repeat mantra: 'We can't let the workers down.' Tails you lose.
  20. David Hogg from Canada writes: The Big 3 consistently ignored the writing on the wall and continued to produce gas-guzzlers and vehicles that required more frequent maintenance and repairs than their competitors did. To add sauce to this stew, they overpaid their company leaders and managers, providing 'reward' bonuses for producing larger deficits and crappy vehicles. To add salt and pepper to the mix, the greedy auto unions agreed to let the companies underfund their pension plans for decades, so long as they got their large hourly wages!

    A tragic story once more of corporate and individual greed with no thought of what might happen in the future.

    Then these 'prizes' try to blackmail us into giving them more money to piss away. They don't deserve any at all! If the governments give some money, they had better attach some iron-clad strings to these gifts! Otherwise they will start screaming for more in 6 months time.
  21. Ontario Man from Canada writes: catastrophic collapse - I don't think so

    bankruptcy protection, restructure, new management plan and away they go

    remember when Air Canada went bankrupt, they never missed a beat, shareholders lost everything, creditors got pennies on the dollar, and Air Canada was up and running under new ownership.

    we can't let self serving fabricated fear drive public policy
  22. K D from Canada writes:
    Do people really think that an industry that employed 1/10 Ontarians direct and indirect is not worth supporting? Do people really believe this won't effect them and the standard of living here?

    WOW.
  23. Entitledto Entitlements from Canada writes: Average cost of $73 dollars an hour for working on an assembly line? I assume that this must include the health and pension liabilities otherwise, it really is crazy. Who else makes this money? And they won't make any concessions because they have suffered and have given enough? So now the taxpayer is supposed to suffer because.... why? We didn't buy their ugly, big, inefficient vehicles? Nice logic. Buzz is the new Greenspan is the new Chretien. A large shadow that created a gigantic mess and bailed just before the catastrophe.
  24. joe kelly from Canada writes: randy smith from Kitchener, writes: 'Let the oil companies bail them out, they need them more than anyone else does.'

    All kidding aside, that's a brilliant idea.
  25. sudhir jain from Calgary, Canada writes: Apart from collapsing economy, car companies have a major headache: the fickle public. One year every one wants an SUV, light truck, minivan. The next year they want minicars and hybrids. One can't switch production line with the batting of an eyelid; it takes time to modify the plants. In the meantime, out of fashion cars are gathering dust and/or snow on the dealers' lots. Blame the companies as much as you like, but changing economy and public tastes are as much to blame. The fact that cars last as long as ten years and don't have to be replaced as often as a few years ago doesn't help. Slightest pinch in the family budget and new car goes to the back burner. Being a manufacturer of big appliances and cars is the last business to be in these days.
  26. Tyler Stark from St. Catharines, Canada writes: The governments should NOT be bailing these companies out; its their own responsibility to adjust. Its the survival of the fittest my friends and not everyone is going to make it.

    The economy is trying to reset itself, and less intervention from the greedy will make this transition go alot easier.

    And I agree with another comment I read; let the oil companies bail them out. Oil companies have the money, and depend on these cars. The world is looking for a excuse to switch away from these types of cars and into hybrids. This may be it.
  27. Oswaldo I from Canada writes: Both the unions and management must make huge wage concessions before this is even considered.
  28. K D from Canada writes:
    David Hogg : People wanted SUVs until gas spiked. People seems to forget that fact??
  29. Crusty Curmudgeon from Ottawa, Canada writes:

    By catastrophic collapse -- do they mean that shareholders will finally wake up and demand the bonus money back from the incompetents that run the corporations?
  30. K D from Canada writes:

    I guess the Oil companies could buy one of the car companies. It does make some sense.
  31. Plain Joe from Canada writes: 'Mr. Wagoner blamed the industry's predicament not on management failures but on the deepening global financial crisis'

    Yep. Just give them the money already. They would not be in this mess if wall street was not so corrupt and north americans so in debt that they cannot afford to now buy or finance cars.

    The big 3 for the last ten years have built cars which equal or exceed the imports (J.D Powers report) in terms of quality. Likewise they have given the market what they wanted: trucks, SUV's and yes, cars as well. It is hypocritical that the imports are not judged so harshly for building SUV's and trucks (see toyota's new pickup plant in the USA).

    The mess they are in now is not of their own doing as many business are experiencing precipitous declines in revenues because of wall street and the prodigal consumption habits and debt loads of north americans which have gotten them to the point where they cannot even pay their bills much less purchase big ticket items.

    You people are very ignorant. The big three have run honest businesses, providing great products (I've always earned flawless Fords and GM's) employing thousands and provided for their families in good faith for many years. Shame on you greedy capitalists. Long live european style socialism!
  32. RS IslandReader from Canada writes: Stop scaring people, and go and get a real job. Yes there will be some rough times, but we will all adjust.
  33. aloysuis paczjoskteyochuk from Canada writes: If we give in and hand over money to these guys than everyone else who is suffering will want a government handout and I ask, is one less important than the other ?
  34. George Levecque from Fergus, Ontario, Canada writes: I am sure the US Banking committee knew that the so called Big 3 where lying thru there teeth, and would soon be back for more cash as the depression keeps going!
    When CAW members tell you why the Big 3 have lost market share is that they cant sell there Cars and Trucks in Asia, ie Korea and Japan have any of these people ever been to Japan or Korea to see how the thousands of people live in very crowded quarters? Can you imagine a 300C driving thru Toyko? and if we here in Canada dont like what the Big 3 produce, why in heavens name would the people in Korea or Japan like them either!
  35. Benjamin Frankling from Canada writes: Where have we heard about that doom's day scenario before? Bush invoked it when the banks were asking for welfare, did he not?.

    It's beginning to sound like the kid 'crying wolf'. The term ''catastrophic collapse' does shock the collective psyche, however.

    And if repeated enough times fear works.

    But let's ask ourselves whether a cold and calculating capitalist would invest in a failing enterprise. Not likely.

    o, since it's our money they're asking for, shouldn't we behave like cold and calculating capitalists?

    I mean, we do have the alternative of investing all that money in the jobless and moneyless so that they can spend it and generate jobs and get themselves working again.

    But then the rich wouldn't be able to get richer like they really want to get richer.

    So, more money for GM and company.
  36. Midtown Bob from Toronto, Canada writes: If Chrysler goes belly up, will I still have to pay my lease payments?
  37. r barnes from montreal, Canada writes: here goes let the oil companies pay the sales tax on every new chev, chrysler, and ford
  38. Plain Joe from Canada writes: ' aloysuis paczjoskteyochuk from Canada writes: If we give in and hand over money to these guys than everyone else who is suffering will want a government handout and I ask, is one less important than the other ?'

    Yes, the auto industry employs millions unlike other industries. We have a vital interest to see it succeed and weather this storm which capitalist fraudsters created.
  39. joe kelly from Canada writes: K D from Canada writes:
    'Do people really think that an industry that employed 1/10 Ontarians direct and indirect is not worth supporting? Do people really believe this won't effect them and the standard of living here?

    WOW. '

    Yes, 'WOW' indeed. As in, wow, you really believe all those factories will shut forever and cars will never get made again in Canada or North America? The importance of this industry to Ontario/Canada/the US is obvious to everyone. The idea that bad decisions, unsustainable business models and generally (but not entirely) unwanted product offerings should be supported by the taxpayer ----- is less obvious.

    Toyota in Cambridge employs approx. 4500 people in an award-winning auto plant , and Honda employs 5000 in Alliston making the #1 selling car in Canada (the Civic). Both appear to have management that have some idea as to how to run an auto company (and yes, we realize they received incentives to locate and expand here).
  40. R. M. from Canada writes: A very interesting comment earlier about 'let the oil companies bail them out, they need them more than anyone' or much to that effect.

    That's an intriguing idea that deserves more exploration (equity stake) BUT the left wing would then be in a real dilemma!!!!
  41. thirtyeight * from Canada writes: If the Big 3 go down, so do most of their small suppliers. And if that happens, the Asian manufacturers take a big hit too. Quit carping and help them out. This isn't about the quality of North American vehicles. It's about a major economic disaster in the making.
  42. Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: What did they do with the $25 billion they already received earlier this year? Guess that didn't prevent a 'catastrophic collapse,' did it?
  43. Plain Joe from Canada writes: George Levecque from Fergus, Ontario, Canada writes: I am sure the US Banking committee knew that the so called Big 3 where lying thru there teeth, and would soon be back for more cash as the depression keeps going!
    When CAW members tell you why the Big 3 have lost market share is that they cant sell there Cars and Trucks in Asia, ie Korea and Japan have any of these people ever been to Japan or Korea to see how the thousands of people live in very crowded quarters? Can you imagine a 300C driving thru Toyko? and if we here in Canada dont like what the Big 3 produce, why in heavens name would the people in Korea or Japan like them either!

    They can't sell cars in asia because of protectionism that does not exist in canada.

    Second, Ford for instance until the recent economic collapse had several best selling vehicles: F150, Escape, Fusion, Focus etc. Once Ford weathers this storm with government assistance, it will continue to be a leader and profitable company. Fact is that no one is buying cars now.
  44. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: joe kelly from Canada writes: randy smith from Kitchener, writes: 'Let the oil companies bail them out, they need them more than anyone else does.'

    All kidding aside, that's a brilliant idea.

    ==========================================

    How so? Just because people don't buy a new vehicle, doesn't mean they'll stop driving the old one, does it? Or they could buy a used vehicle. And why wouldn't another car maker like Toyota, Honda, etc, sell that person a new car or truck? If there's a market for any given product or service - somebody WILL fill it. And typically without any gov't intervention.
  45. Scare Crow from Canada writes: GM CEO Wagoner, said not so long ago that the Toyota Prius was simply a publicity stunt. I guess that 'stunt' had resonated well to the consumer since you have to be on the waiting list to buy this these kind of cars.
    Had they been innovating years ago instead of busy lobbying washington not to increase the MPG of cars built, would have been in good position now. I say let it die and rebuilt itself like what happen to the steel industry in the US, or the airline industry for that matter.
  46. byronc conroy from vancouver island, writes: DETROIT BUILDS JUNK.
  47. joe kelly from Canada writes: On a final note, if we are going to risk $3.5 billion of Cdn tax money (and $25 billion of US) then why not buy the friggin things? GM's market cap is a lousy $1.7 billion. Ford's is $3.8 billion. Of course, I'm being facetious because the problem is the liabilities they carry. Nonetheless, the market seems to be saying 'down they must go'. If government steps in, they better a) ensure EVERYONE shares the pain; and b) reap some substantial upside if the unlikely happens and the bail-out works.

    Let's not lose sight of the fact that GM, despite making some real progress in various markets, has been in a death-spiral for 25 years.
  48. Life Is Good from Canada writes: randy smith from Kitchener, writes: Let the oil companies bail them out, they need them more than anyone else does.

    Best idea yet. Or let them go the way of the dodo bird.
    We had this same problem with forestry in the other end of the province. Yeah Toronto, Ont. continues on past North Bay. But no one would listen. We lost tens of thousands of jobs. So those that moved on are doing well. A few were able to stay. Don't this sound familiar. Now it's your turn. Sucks to be us. You will do all right. Just takes time, but forget about the days of making 35 bucks an hour. Surely you didn't think this would go on like that forever. Buzz lied. Get over it.
  49. Silver Standard (America is a welfare queen superpower) from Canada writes: This is fear mongering to get money...pure and simple. They are doing the same as the banks. Its all bull.

    Buy gold and silver.
  50. joe kelly from Canada writes: Dear 'Sweeney Todd from Oilberta', what is it with you 'Oilbertans'? No one can even write the words 'oil company' with you guys getting all jumpy. Funny thing is, most of you are transplanted from down east.

    Look, I have no problem with the oil companies. They do what they do and yes if the publicity fall-out / conspiracy theorists didn't scare them off, they could buy GM with their petty cash.

    What I do have a problem with is the reactionary sycophantic horde who kiss-up to our oil industry and squander a national --- yes national --- resource in exchange for chump change in royalties. The Norwegians rightly think Canadians are idiots.
  51. Yogie Bear from The Forest, Canada writes: The CEO of the Sask. Potash Corp., who lives in Chicago, makes $300,000,000 a year, including stock options. How much have the CEO's of the big three been compensated for doing such a poor job?
  52. The Remnant from Canada writes: :
    What is the message here to Toyota, Honda, Mazda, and other car manufacturers that build a product people actually want? Let the oil companies bail the big three out? The oil companies don't care. No matter who is left, the demand for cars will be there. They don't care whose cars their oil goes into.
  53. Doctor X from Guelph, Canada writes: If we allow the 'Detroit 3' to go bankrupt, what will happen to all those would-be car-buyers in North America? Will they refuse to buy cars? No. They will buy the best and most economical vehicles on the market, many of which are already made in the US and Canada by Toyota, Honda, etc. in places like Cambridge, Ontario. Business would boom for these factories, which would then expand, providing good jobs for Americans and Canadians. With not a dime spent by government. People need to get over the nostalgia for these 'North American' companies, which are anything but...they are owned by (not so bright) shareholders around the world, and none of them care at all about keeping jobs in North America.
    The alternative is to spend billions to doom places like Ontario, Michigan, and Ohio to prolonged economic insecurity. The economic fundamentals of the Detroit 3 are simply unsustainable, and no amount of handouts will change that, unless they change their cost structures, but they have shown no desire to do so.
    btw, I just bought a Camry Hybrid, made in Kentucky, and I'm lovin' it!
  54. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: joe kelly from Canada writes: Dear 'Sweeney Todd from Oilberta', what is it with you 'Oilbertans'? No one can even write the words 'oil company' with you guys getting all jumpy. Funny thing is, most of you are transplanted from down east.

    Look, I have no problem with the oil companies. They do what they do and yes if the publicity fall-out / conspiracy theorists didn't scare them off, they could buy GM with their petty cash.

    What I do have a problem with is the reactionary sycophantic horde who kiss-up to our oil industry and squander a national --- yes national --- resource in exchange for chump change in royalties. The Norwegians rightly think Canadians are idiots.

    ===========================================

    So move to Norway.
  55. dwight tanner from Canada writes: Since when does one the fox's opinion about management of the henhouse? Has anyone talked to an experienced Trustee in Bankruptcy?
  56. Wtf, Over? from Raincouver, Canada writes: Ontario Man from Canada writes: remember when Air Canada went bankrupt, they never missed a beat, shareholders lost everything, creditors got pennies on the dollar, and Air Canada was up and running under new ownership.

    Correction: STAKEHOLDERS lost everything. That means employees as well as shareholders. Everyone loves to bash AC for lousy customer service. The bad attitude comes from management royally screwing the employees during the restructuring process, and making bad-faith promises that the cuts were only temporary to restore profitability. It seemed that every week they wanted another concession. There was even an acronym for it - BOHICA Bend Over, Here It Comes Again.

    Do you really think that anyone will want to buy cars built by employees who have been similarly demoralized by massive cuts that take away everything worthwhile about the job? If you think Detroit3 quality is non-existent now, well you ain't seen nothing yet.

    We are supposed to move forward in life, not back. After all, Canada is supposed to be a first-world country, not a third-world one, so why why do so many people seem to want to take us back to Dickensian England? It seems that many posters on here will not be happy until there are no unions, pensions,benefits or labour protections of any kind left in this country. Anyone who feels that workers should expect nothing and make less than nothing really ought to try living and working in a third-world sweatshop first. See how you like it...
  57. Joe shoppin in the U.S from Canada writes: Um aren't these the same guys that told all the dealers South of the border not to sell to CANADIANS when the loonie was flying high and are currently facing a class action lawsuit? See you in the local EI office my friends!!!! NO NO NO money !!!!
  58. K D from Canada writes:
    'Yes, 'WOW' indeed. As in, wow, you really believe all those factories will shut forever and cars will never get made again in Canada or North America? The importance of this industry to Ontario/Canada/the US is obvious to everyone. The idea that bad decisions, unsustainable business models and generally (but not entirely) unwanted product offerings should be supported by the taxpayer ----- is less obvious'.

    What you fail to understand is when one company closes it's doors the suppliers start shutting down and it disrupts and could easily cripple the entire industry. It's all interconnected. If you don't believe me, believe the management of Honda and Toyota. The are very worried about it also!

    Oh and by the way, companies that make up about 1/2 of the Canadian market hardly qualify as having 'unwanted product'. Another mis-used comment from people who don't understand.
  59. Steve Church from Canada writes: Bailing them out won't work. It won't end the crisis because their core product lines are obsolete. Their answer every round is 'all-new' products - so the product you just bought is the 'all-new-obsolete' value sucker. Good suggestion for the oil companies to invest in the Bag Three; double-dog dare ya to be accountable for your fuel-suckers' popularity. The right move is probably to chop-shop one of 'em off with classic triage. If there's public money going into the sector, buy shares in Toyota or Honda or VW, and encourage them to accelerate their NA manufacturing.
  60. Kirwan Martin from Canada writes: I believe that both the UAW and the CAW are refusing to put anything much in. Unless and until they're prepared to join in to this proposed bailout governments should refuse to put in tax payers money.
    Perhaps it would be better for the 'Big Three' to go into Chapter Eleven to work their way to redemption. Giving them more $$$ to waste is NOT the solution.
  61. Plain Joe from Canada writes: ' Wtf, Over? from Raincouver, Canada writes: If you think Detroit3 quality is non-existent now, well you ain't seen nothing yet'

    This is so ignorant and misinformed its truly sad. So you know better than J.D Powers which ranks Ford's cars at or above the same level as Toyota's in terms of quality?

    Research the quality on the toyota avalon if you dare!
  62. Pelotas Piquen from Canada writes: How about we let one of them collapse and see what happens to the economy... if the effect is minimal, then let another collapse. The last one left standing should have enough market share to keep going on it's own... for a few more months anyway.
  63. Plain Joe from Canada writes: NEWSFLASH: TOYOTA QUALITY PLUMETTING

    'Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years, and there seems to be nothing the dealer can do. Toyota has reached a size that they've lost sight of the individual customer.'

    Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality; fixes sought for 'problematic vehicle'

    Toyota predicts that the Avalon will score well in J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study, to be released in June. But the quality gap is closing. And Toyota recalls have spiked in the last two years.

    The Avalon's launch problems point to a larger issue. To meet demand, Toyota has added factories in North America and thousands of new employees. Executives are worried that Toyota's rapid growth may dilute its quality standards

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060501/FREE/60501002/1024/LATESTNEWS
  64. jamie yavis from Canada writes: The top execs of the big three should be sent to Guantanamo Bay to rethink of what they did wrong.

    Too many 'important' CEO's and their minions single handedly took once iconc industries and mismanaged them to a point of no return, and now they want hand outs!

    Not for the good of the workers, I would bet, but so they, the execs, still get their multi-million dollar pay packages.

    Save the industry, but toss out the people that got them where they are today!
  65. M B from Canada writes: Heard on TV tonight that the autoworkers' wage is $73 per hour!

    $73 per hour!!!

    What's wrong with this picture?
  66. Nature Lover from Canada writes: How is bailing out businesses so they will generate jobs and revenue different than funding social programs with tax payers money? Cut out the middle men corporate executives who all fly pretty high when times are good, draining the corp coffers with insanely large salaries. They were not worth their weight in big bucks now were they? They lost control of the reigns even though gov'ts have always favoured them with tax concessions etc because they wer fueling the economy and creating jobs.
  67. Yogie Bear from The Forest, Canada writes: The 'Big Three' should just amalgamate and stop competing against one another.
  68. I M from Canada writes: Bailout or no bailout. Each has a bad outcome. Do we really want to reward the big three for failing??? But, are we willing to go through a DEEP recession to prove a point?
    As a side note---- how many vehicles do the big 3 make? If they stop production, pretty soon there will be huge car shortages. A Civic will cost $40,000. Maybe one or two of the big 3 should be allowed to die. This might reduce supply enough to make the others profitable.
  69. R Hopkins from Edmonton, Canada writes: Take the $3 billion and put it into the Canadian forces, then offer the auto workers a job in Afghanistan.
  70. J. Michael from Canada writes: Option 1: Rip up the existing employment contracts and arrangements and negotiate contract agreements that are profitable and allow the comanies to stay in business without government hand-outs - that includes everything; health packages, retirement benefits, etc....

    Option 2: Bankrupsy.
  71. Joe shoppin in the U.S from Canada writes: Pinch me please !!! I must be having a nightmare. I was forbidden to buy a vehicle in the U.S with my hard earned dollars so your just gonna take it from me anyways I see............This is nuts, I can't for the life of me comprehend why there are no major concessions or restructuring plans on the table and yet we have come this far again??
  72. Brian Parks from Woodstock On., Canada writes: I watched Global National news earlier this evening. The CAW president said that governments should help bail out the auto industry in Canada. With a straight face he insisted that his union was not part of the auto industry problems. Labour costs only make up 7% of the total cost of a new vehicle he said. CAW union will not make any more concessions he said. What arrogance! What stupidity!
    What a silly little man he is. In six to eight months he will be the president of nothing. The Detroit three or two or one will survive after declaring bankruptcy. Ken and his cronies will be on the outside , looking in.
  73. Michael Richardson from Canada writes: I hope to God they let these poor excuses for car manufacturers die. That's the only way the slate will be wiped clean, and the problems can be truly dealt with and out of the ashes we can actually have a viable, productive car manufacturing industry. NO BAILOUTS!!!
  74. Joe Average from Vancouver, Canada writes: Oh, what a feeling-- T O Y-O -T-A!
  75. George BrownIII from Christmas Island writes: Midtown Bob, ya betcha, some vulture company will buy that debt for pennies on the dollar as make you pay every bloody nickel and dime.

    As far as I am concerned they can fold, I never intended to buy another Big FFing 3's vehicle again. Take that and run mr waggoner or Ford Extinct. When Mercedes could not whip chrysler in shape why the hell should taxpayers fail at it again. Hey Micheal Moore may finally get his interview with roger. Sorry is the hardest word after the warranty is over and the dealer wants $80 per hour for labour when you make only $10 an hour.

    Yup UAW the party is over glad you had a good time while it lasted.
  76. K B from Canada writes: M B from Canada writes: Heard on TV tonight that the autoworkers' wage is $73 per hour!

    $73 per hour!!!

    What's wrong with this picture?

    That cost is NOT wages.

    I work in automotive but NOT at a Detroit 3 plant. That cost figure of $73 would include other costs such as health benefits, S&A and LTD payments, etc, etc. The hourly [wage] rate for a GM worker (I've heard) is in the range of 30-32/hr.
  77. Eric of Windsor from Canada writes: RE: 'The Big 3 consistently ignored the writing on the wall and continued to produce gas-guzzlers .... They relied too much on high margin SUV's and had not contingency plan for rising oil prices!!!.....the Japanese manufacturers who have proven their ability to produce what the consumers want.' .......................................... First off the big three only produce what sells, why do you think the offshore car companies started making the big vehicles also. You Cannot blame that on them. Secondly there are plenty of smaller fuel efficient vehicles offered by the Big 3, besides not even the offshores could plan around a 6 month rise in gas prices. That is ludicrous to blame them for. Thirdly the media is the ones that push the offshore vehicles. Take motor.. trend and car....and ...driver and the others, they all promote offshore over the Big 3. Yes at one time the Big 3 produced garbage like back in the 70's and 80's but that has changed. There is no one to blame other than the consumer. As a company you produce what sells if you don't you go out of business. If G.M. was in bed with the oil producers why are they suffering now. They would have had inside info on the oil prices and would have prepared for the consumer shift to small cars. So easy to blame the Big 3 when it is our own greed for big gas guzzlers, then abandoning them when gas got to expensive. Wake up and take responsibility, what you drive governs what the Auto companies build !!!!!!!!!!!!
  78. Yusuf Gad from Canada writes: Car companies need to evolve like all other businesses. There are some painful choices that need to be made.

    1) These companies must downsize. Not just in workforce but in scope. Stop producing a 100, 000 cars a week. Stop trying to be all things to all people and focus on a handful of cars every year until you are profitable again.

    2) Completely re conceptualize cars. It's time to take those concept cars and put them on the road. We need NEW kinds of cars, not the same old ones.

    3) Start producing cars with less parts. The manufacturing industry has been living in a bubble. Less is more. Simple is better. Modular is best.

    4) Think local. It's time for the Canadian wings of GM, Ford, ect to start building cars for the Canadian market place. Smaller focus. Less risk.

    5) Execs need to slash their salaries. At this point, I find it hard to believe that any one of these guys can ask for a salary more than their receptionist. They are giant screw ups and they should be compensated as such.

    6) Diversify the economy of Ontario. It's time that we start opening up other kinds of businesses than just auto, and make sure that we minimize our risk in the future.

    7) Start building scooters. That's right. Start building smaller motorcycles and electric bikes. They are selling like crazy.

    8) It's time to be the thinkers and not just the builders. Canadian auto companies need to show that they can do more than just build other people's cars. They need to design and create them themselves. So long as the mandate is coming from the south, we are always at risk. We need greater autonomy over what get's built here or we might as well just shut it all down now and get it over with.
  79. Vancouver Island Voice from Canada writes: I am supposed to contribute my tax dollars to support the 'big three'? How long did they think that big pick ups and SUVs were going to be the way? So, if you're big enough even the upmost stupidity must be rewarded. It certainly turned out to be the case for the banks!

    If my business fails for poor planning I don't see the taxman rushing to my door with bailout dollars.

    Oh, and to the United Auto Workers that have made enough concessions already, you want the rest of non-union Canada to really believe that BS. Look around and smell the coffee brothers and sisters.
  80. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: Absolutely, let's support the people in Ontario who work there. Let's buy the factories for pennies on the dollar after the companies go bankrupt and invest in Canadian vehicles, by Canadians, for the world. We could invest in Zenn and help them being big. We could resurrect Bricklin. We could do all sorts of things that don't involve giving stupidly run FOREIGN corporations more money for them to fritter away on bad decisions and costly executive packages. If my tax money is going to be used for this type of thing, I WANT OWNERSHIP. No donations of tax money to capitalist corporations. None. Nothing. Not one cent. They fought and lobbied for less taxes, well, damn, there aren't any taxes going the other way either. Let them fold, then pick up the remains and start something new. Maybe even let the people who work there claim ownership of the factories in which they work. Give the workers a direct stake in their workplace. I'd support tax money for that, so long as it was a loan, not a donation. But no tax money for hyper-capitalist corporations that have for years fought tooth and nail against paying their fair share of taxes. They are capitalists. Let them go bankrupt, then support the workers, not the people who made it go bankrupt in the first place.
  81. Wtf, Over? from Raincouver, Canada writes: Plain Joe from Canada writes: This is so ignorant and misinformed its truly sad. So you know better than J.D Powers which ranks Ford's cars at or above the same level as Toyota's in terms of quality?

    I never claimed to know more than J.D. Power or anyone else. I'm merely responding to the apparently widely-held belief that Detroit3 cars are garbage with a statement of fact. Fact: When you destroy employees' morale, the quality of the product that they ( and by extension, you the company ) provides deteriorates. It is basic human nature to seek revenge for wrongs real or perceived. All the more so when the object of revenge is richer than you, thereby adding jealousy to the equation....
  82. Christopher Kiely from Canada writes: Plain Joe from Canada writes:

    They can't sell cars in asia because of protectionism that does not exist in canada.

    __________________________________________________________

    This is a red herring. I spend a fair amount of time in Asia and the simple fact is Asians do not want NA cars. They want Asian and European cars. No 16 year old in Asia is dying for a Malibu.

    The Big 3 made thjer bed, marketed the wrong product to the wrong consumers (i.e., consumers with their heads as far in the sand as the big 3) while the Japanese and Europeans were providing real alternatives with technologies aimed at creating more efficient vehicles (e.g., hybrids, clean diesels, VVT engines, CVT transmissions, etc...). Now the trend has shifted to cars with those technologies, SUVs are no longer desirable and the Big3 got caught with their pants down.

    While Toyota was marketing hybrids, Chrysler was dumping advertising money into V8 Hemis... enough said.
  83. D K from Canada writes: Are they going to loan money to any other business that is facing bankruptcy?
  84. barry cabeza from somewhere-longreach, Canada writes: THE BIG 3.

    If they do not unite somehow,
    and/or sell off in a big way,
    they will not survive,
    trying to save their workers,
    even if it be a sad truth...!

    The cash hole these 3BIG are,
    will not be filled up, with a
    BILLION a month 'package',
    if there is not more than that
    as income...!

    Helping out the Asians, has put
    in jeopardy, N. America...!
    Or you sell all your american
    already made cars to them...!
    Or why buy from them...!

    Do not make me believe you,
    will crucify the N. Americans...!
    Free enterprise is one thing,
    but lets level the rules in the
    playing field...!

    As things are going, it is obvious,
    the BIG3 are 'sunken' 'ships'...!

    cabeza...!
  85. D JL from Canada writes: Okay...

    Let's dump them. Who cares? Close the factories in Can & USA. Who cares.. oops there goes the EI. Oh Ont. stays a have not Prov.. Who cares. They deserve it.

    Short cited, small, narrow thinking.

    Think long term (more than tomorrow morning). But we all enjoy kicking Ont. around.

    I really wish I lived in a country. as opposed to small individual states.
  86. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: However it is decided whether to bail out the industry or not, one thing is for sure - all these CEOs deserve to have their wrinkled white asses kicked out onto the street.
  87. Misery No one from Toronto, Canada writes: Well they talk about all these hybrids that are supposed to be coming on the market soon. They have presented this as there swan song to get money from congress.

    One might ask why did they kill the electric car? Why should the taxpayer support these money loosing bandits who just care about the oil companies.
  88. Joe Wallach from Russell, Ontario, Canada writes: The North American auto makers do not deserve anything. They should have seen this coming, but in their arrogance they assumed the US and Canadian consumer would continue to buy their inferior products, inferior when compared to German and Japanese cars.

    The manufacturers who want to compete will do so, or will fold, and others will step in. Necessity is the mother of invention, so let them invent, or disappear.
  89. joe kelly from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: 'So move to Norway.'

    Quod erat demonstrandum.

    Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

    North America has excess auto manufacturing capacity. Estimated to be as high as 25%. The quality gap between NA and Japan/Europe has greatly narrowed and in some cases the big 3 make better vehicles. Problem remains the management gap and the business model. At least one executive before Congress today came a bit close to a mea culpa when he effectively said his industry got lazy chasing low hanging fruit (pick-ups, SUV's etc) while letting the product cycle for small cars like the Cavalier extend into oblivion while companies like Honda kept re-inventing the Civic even when oil was cheap.

    Ford is 'lucky' to have European products they can import or re-engineer for NA and will likely survive without a hand-out. GM needs time and lots of money, as it always seems to. Chrysler appears doomed in its current iteration. So yeah, let's bail 'em all out.
  90. double mike from Canada writes: .
    Now I finally understand! Before I thought that a goal of a business enterprise is to enrich shareholders by providing goods and services to consumers. How silly of me! The real goal of a business is to employ as much people as possible!

    .
  91. J Lee from Canada writes: They can first of all cut wages for all employees to minimum wage. And that includes all the best and brightest, in-high demand, must-be-retained, world experienced executives and managers. (Yes the ones that successfully drove the companies into the ground.) We will then see how committed they are to saving their jobs and companies. And while they are working so hard to save the companies, the directors and shareholders can put in a few bucks to help too.
  92. Andrei Popov from NYC, United States writes: Plain Joe from Canada writes: NEWSFLASH: TOYOTA QUALITY PLUMETTING 'Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years (...)

    ya, since the've start building them in ontario...
  93. Misery No one from Toronto, Canada writes: The price of their stock tells it all. Those little old ladies who were investing for their old age will be out cutting grass this summer.
  94. V K from Toronto, Canada writes: So, what if the US government would offer a bailout, but a bailout with strings that looked like this:

    1. all three companies must fold and merge into a single remaining (North) American car company that takes the best (?) technology of the three dying ones. At least some jobs are kept but we know that this industry needs paring down and regrowth.
    2. the new company must rationalize their product offering down to that of any current standard big auto company. Make them pick the most