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GM Canada beset by pension crisis

GREG KEENAN AND MURRAY CAMPBELL

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 9:28 AM EST 19/11/08

Massive pension deficit presents a quandary for governments that would be on the hook in the event of bankruptcy ...Read the full article

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  1. David Hogg from Canada writes: At the risk of sounding hard-hearted, why is there a quandary for governments?

    For years, the big 3 car makers have underfunded their pension plans, with the reluctant approval of their autoworkers unions who wanted to maintain the level of their hourly wages and get annual increases.

    Now these greedy companies and individuals are crying for help out of a situation they collectively dug themselves into. Perhaps they should have considered making their products more reliable and more in tune with the needs of their customers.

    Is it any wonder that the Japanese car makers' plants in the US and Canada produce and sell more cars than the big 3 do? Don't those dinosaurs ever learn anything unless it is driven into their heads with a piledriver? In spite of billions of taxpayer dollars in subsidies over the years, they still produce crap and lose money!

    They don't deserve a red cent more of taxpayers' money
  2. Iain's Opinion from Canada writes: This is why there needs to be legislation requiring defined benifit private pension plans to be fully funded.
  3. s like from Canada writes: I can remember GM pulling surplus cash out of its pension funds 10 years ago to pump up profit and assuring everyone that future returns would cover their obligations. I was skeptical then and now I just think they were all greedy and stupid.
  4. Winston Smith from Canada writes: There aren't too many pension funds that are fully funded at this stage of the bear market with the exception of those belonging to politicians and public sector employees (taxpayer backstopped).
  5. Peter Lucas from langley, Canada writes: So, GM and its unionized workers are asking Canadian taxpayers who are not covered by a pension plan and who have to fend for themselves in retirement to pay tax to support their gold-plated pensions. That takes a lot of nerve.
  6. censured ... from Canada writes: so...like last night I went out and partied a little too hard...again...don't really feel like going to work today...probably not tomorrow either...you think you guys could spare a few buck to tide me over until...well, maybe forever...I promise I'll keep doing what I'm doing...whatever that is.
  7. Vern McPherson from Canada writes:

    hoggy writes:

    'Is it any wonder that the Japanese car makers' plants in the US and Canada produce and sell more cars than the big 3 do?'

    Sorry David. Not true. But it was interesting hearing from you. Make up some more stuff.
  8. p m from Canada writes: defined benifit private pension plans to be fully funded. whereas contribution based are as is..

    europe and the UK knoew this, from an actuarial point over 15 yewars ago and legislated that there would be no defined beneift plans..

    how come the NA governments didn't do this? to much flack?
  9. J S from Canada writes: You know, Flaherty just gave the banks $90 billion in liquidity funds so they could continue lending money to businesses that need it. I think GM needs it. Why aren't the banks stepping in to make them some low interest loans with their new found BILLIONS OF TAX PAYERS MONEY?
  10. Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada writes: And Just who is responsposible for this mess. For this the Canadian and Ontario taxpayers can thank former Premier MR BOB RAE and his NDP party which, in the early 90's exempted the CAW unionized automakers from the same rules that governed everyone else. This is the same Bob Rae who wants to become the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada. This is the same Bob Rae who reallt hasn't changed his stripes when it comes to matters economic, just ask him if he'd do the same thing again and see what his answer is. Life will have it's way with irony and talk about the chickens coming home to roost!
  11. Big Tony from Canada writes: If you work for the private sector be prepared to work for a long time. I don't think the problem is exclusive to the auto industry as many pension plans and RRSPs are massively underwater due to the historic financial meltdown caused by regulators not regulating on Wall Street. For many of us now, early retirement is not an option and for many working beyond the age of 65 is almost assured, unless as another poster Winston Smith stated, ' you are a politician or public sector employee'.
  12. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: From the article: 'GM is the only company in Ontario that is permitted to make annual payments into the province's Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund instead of being required to finance its pensions on a solvency basis.'

    So clearly we screwed up 15 years ago when our government made such a boneheaded decision (thanks Bob Rae!), however the answer is NOT to throw good money after bad.

    We (our government) made a mistake and now will have to pay for it when (not if) GM files for bankruptcy protection. Hopefully we'll learn from our mistakes and not offer such stupid targeted special treatment to certain companies at any time in the future.

    The moral of the story: there is no such thing as 'too big to fail'. GM WILL file for bankruptcy protection regardless of how much money we give them. Their chunk of the $25B U.S. is only enough to postpone the inevitable by approximately 6 months, they're burning through cash at more than $2B a month. An extra billion or two from us (either Ontario or the Feds) is only another few weeks more.
  13. Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada writes: Hey Vern hows this for more stuff. The CAW president last night said that he wasn't going to allow this situation to result in any further concessions from the union. This is the same union that bargained with the government of Bob Rae back in the 90's to allow GM, Ford and Chrysler to be exempt from the requirement that their pension plans be fully funded, like every other employer and union in the province of Ontario. This is the same union that has 'negotiated' wage increases to the point that north American car manufacturers have to pay on average $75.00 per hour in labour costs for each vehicle produced while Honda, Toyota and the others only have to pay $45.00 per hour. Any wonder why the big three automakers are in such dire straights!
  14. david tarbuck from Ukraine writes: I was born in 1938 and as such I took a hit of 30% on ny CPP when Paul martin 'balanced the books' and stopped the rediculous deficit financing started by the arrogant Trudeau and expanded by the pompous Mulroney.

    OK, Along with others in my age group, I accepted the necessity of strong action to end the slide into a debt that would require 100% of the federal taxes to service the interest: the party was over! Now I suggest others (in the auto industry will have to accept much the same! And for similar reasoning.
  15. skydaemon . from Canada writes: This is stupid. If they file for bankruptcy the gov't should seize and liquidate their assets prior to creditors claims and plug their pension deficit as much as possible. If not the pensions should be prorated to what actually exists in the fund now. Tough sh!t.

    This is beyond stupid. Decades of dense gov'ts porking money at their plants and bending rules for a company that should have been left to die decades ago. Aggravating doesn't cover it.

    Under no circumstances should there be any money given to them, or taxpayers be on the hook for their ridiculous pensions. If they aren't funded, they don't exist.

    Forget this waiting around to die business. Time to forcably liquidate GM.
  16. Neandercon The Barbarian from Canada writes: Why is there support for financial assistance to greedy incopetent financial instutions who's primary product is legal ursury? For years any excuse to charge a fee or exact a penalty was used, even the newspapers reported with glee the huges profits that were being made untill receintly. An auto manufacturer, despite the products faults, provided a usuful service, should not receive help. Why is that, love of bankers and contempt for assembly line workers. This mess was made with the governments help, now it will be cleaned up, one way or another with government involvment, meaning the taxpayer. Hope elected politicians are smarter than union or bank alpha swine.
  17. Just In from Canada writes: Why didn't Jim Flaherty, Tony Clement, John Baird of the Mike Harris government fix this problem during the 'common sense revolution'. They cut education and health care and other services resulting in Walkerton tragedy, but left this pension shortfall alone. After they threw Bob Rae out of office for all the pro union mischief. Flaherty just wanted the books to look good and pass this problem on to the next government.

    Now I understand why Flaherty and Clement are all over this problem trying to bail out auto. It is another CYA move to hide and pass this problem to the next federal government. The difference between Mike Harris and Stephen Harper is Harper will throw good money after bad.
  18. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Peter Lucas from langley, Canada writes:

    'So, GM and its unionized workers are asking Canadian taxpayers who are not covered by a pension plan and who have to fend for themselves in retirement to pay tax to support their gold-plated pensions. That takes a lot of nerve.'

    Something like that. And you wanna know something? ...The authorities may well go for it!

    How ironic!
  19. Neandercon The Barbarian from Canada writes: Factorys receiving bail out money should immediatly be de-certified of all union involvement. Public money is for the good of the public, not the advancement of CAW's openly hostile to any government's agenda.
  20. Larry Loins from vancouver, Canada writes: Let them eat dog food,the bailout will not end until everyone is broke and starving.You can't let the drowning man take you down too,you have to kick him off to survive.
  21. Martin Chriton from Silicon Valley, Calif, Canada writes: ' Just In from Canada writes: Why didn't Jim Flaherty, Tony Clement, John Baird of the Mike Harris government fix this problem during the ''

    Are you seriously suggesting that it's fine to vote Liberal/NDP because any problem they cause the conservatives can snap there fingers and fix?

    Unfortunately reversing someone of the bad decisions of those parties is non-trivial.
  22. J. Michael from Canada writes: We all need to get real about what is going on with the economy at present. We are not in the midst of some early 1990's recession. We are probably facing the worst economic collapse in human history.

    Forget about the Great Depression, there was nothing great about that - it would have been a blip if some of the social services had been in place - what we are facing will make the Great Depression look like a tea party.

    However, no need to panic, but we do need to face the facts. We will soon not have the luxury of using tax payer's money to support the Fat Cats, so let's forget that. It is over - we need to now focus on how we will all survive this catastrophe that is heading our way.

    One strategy to start - neighbour supporting neighbour - we will get through. It just might be a blessing in disguise!
  23. Paul Bowler from Canberra, Australia writes: J.S. from Canada - if you saw the 'performance' of Rick Wagoner, Alan Mulally and the guy from Cerberus/Chrysler at yesterday's Senate hearing, you would know why the banks would not lend any one of them a dollar! Apart from their hubris, none of the Big Three has any free collateral left to post for a loan. Would you lend them a dollar? I certainly would not! As public companies (which Chrysler no longer is) GM & Ford need Chapter 11, to re-organise and re-invent themselves, but without (are you listening Roger and Alan?) their current CEOs, Boards and senior managements!! The US and the world will survive with smaller GM and Ford - and for the better!
    Chapter 11 before Inauguration Day!!!
  24. J. Michael from Canada writes: In 1 1/2 years the Ontario government will be up to its eyeballs in red ink; it won't be able to guarantee a night out on the town.
  25. Misery No one from Toronto, Canada writes: The Unions bloated demands has finally bankrupted the car companies
  26. Tim Burns from Canada writes: Why should selfemployed tax payers who have seen their RRSPs drop 20-40%, fund overpaid, lazy for the most part extremely uneducated people's gold plated pensions?

    (Im referring to politician's, not autoworkers, but it could be said for both)
  27. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes: When the Bob Rae NDP government exempted GM from funding its solvency or windup deficiency, its contributions to Ontario's Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund were to increase to 2.5 per cent of the solvency deficiency, or to a maximum of $5 million per year. If not for the caps, GM would have to pay the guaranteed fund nearly $81 million a year.

    And this guy wants to be Prime Minister of Canada!

    http://rde.me/B4
  28. Rudy Krueger from High River, Canada writes: We have in the past 70 years, learned a very great deal about human beings - physiologically, emotionally, socially... We know that one of our capacities is 'empathy.' It is a survival capability without which we would, by virtue of being in such close proximity with such competing needs and extreme vulnerabilities, not survive as a specie. Empathy is a complex capacity. It is the neurological-psychological-physiological source of the 'golden rule.' I seriously doubt that any of the rant-and-raver BS that is so prominent in these blogs, would be played out in real life by those who disgorge it here. But it destroys the value of these comments sections. It weighs them down with so great an amount of garbage that nobody bothers to read them after trying it once. It also shows the governments that their constituency is so distracted by problems with lunatics on the fringes of society, that they (the government and bureaucrats) can pretty well do whatever they want without being noticed. As a whole, society is too empathetic to let retired people just die in the streets. At any rate this remains a wealthy country and the world's economy remains the collective capacity and will of nearly 7 billion people to survive and to beter their surroundings at least for their children. We have so very far to go in that regard that there will be a normal economy in a few months - maybe a year or so. Far-sighted people will make the decisions and will be compelled to ignore all this dross.
  29. truth betold from Canada writes: F*** that sh!t. i'm self employed. My pension plan is my RSP. It has been decimated in the past six months. It'll be over my dead body that I pay taxes to support some under-educated nincomp00p auto-worker who's been hauling in $60K a year to sweep floors while his incompetent bosses have been designing and building cars nobody has wanted for 30 years and trucks nobody wants now.

    If transfers continue like this, people will shift more and more of their work to the underground economy. Work will be traded for work. Goods for goods. Services for services. And taxpayers will minimize their contact with (taxable) currency.

    So go ahead, Ontario. Bail out your pals in the auto industry and buy votes by saving autoworkers. It's only a matter of time before the rest of us wise up.

    Oh, you'll still get our tax returns on time. But don't be surprised when we've only 'earned' an amount roughly equivalent to the personal deduction and whatever other credits we can claim.

    Even govenrment can't draw blood from a stone.
  30. Tom Araxias from Chatham, Canada writes: Interventionism will not work, it never has, it never will. Let capitalism work by allowing the NA auto companies with their failed business model go bankrupt. No one is too big to fail.

    I must admit that when all of us will suffer significant pain due to this economic crisis of unprecedented proportions (and its only just begun), feeling sorry for overpaid auto workers and their gold plated pensions is not something I'm prepared to do. Our government shouldn't either.
  31. dean spence from Canada writes: Great. I spend my life listening to these overpaid dropouts run their mouths about money, now I have to support them in their dotage. And notice their leaders whine about how they can't take wage cuts because they've already 'suffered' enough. Forget it, clowns.
  32. Evan Gillespie from Canada writes: If it were up to me the government would do 2 things:

    1) Impose trade barriers effective in 1 year that limit the value of imports to within a reasonable percetage of exports for each country of corporate ownership, with exception to the US.
    2) Let them fail.

    As much as auto makers here have failed so to has the government in allowing foreign producers access to our markets that are not reciprocal.
  33. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    I had the opportunity to watch the 'Detroit Three' CEO's live before the Senate Banking Committee and I was disappointed as to what I heard.

    This article captures only miniscule details of the hearings.

    The Detroit three want an immediate 25 Billion, yet when asked if they would ever pay it back, there were elusive at best.

    When asked how long this would take them to 'burn'the money, one Senator said they would be back in 3 months for more, which NO CEO challenged.

    NA auto sales will drop from 17 million units to 11 million units this year, but the CEO fortune tellers expect units to increase to 15 million by 2010. When further probed 'how,' once again, they could NOT answer.

    When asked where the money would go, several different responses. Pay off suppliers-pay salaries-pay pensions and medical benefits.....When asked about new technology, they 'felt' they would be ready by 2010!!!!

    The one item that was troubling was when it was stated that when the plants are 'idle, workers continued to receive 95% of their wages NOT to work! When pressed for details, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger was elusive....
    .
  34. inside a moral kiosk from Canada writes: we are all facing a pension shortfall
  35. Roger Cooper from Canada writes: GM is a company that has deliberately underfunded its pension plan with the collusion of CAW. Their workforce is overpaid and their products are uncompetitive.

    Let them fail. Otherwise, every large company in Canada will be asking for similar bailouts.
  36. JACK V from Canada writes: On this site I hear a lot about pension funds ,well how would you's like to have your owen GOVERNMENT destroy your pensions and livelyhoods. We the tobacco families have had that done by the Mc Guinty GOVERNMENT ,personal myself lost over 200,000 dollars in value, in the GOVERNMENTS war on smoking. And this GOVERNMENT is allowing the natives to sell TAX FREE smokes at illegal smoke shops , and allowing imports to replace doemestic production, so why not the auto sector P.S. And a lot of people will say that this product is not good for you ,but also it is still a legal product, just like making cars, and your GOVERNMENT collects over 9 bilion in TAXES, and we are not receving help from the Mc Guinty GOVERNMENT of ONTARIO and we did nothing wrong in our business like the big 3.If taxes help out the big 3 then we the tobacco families must also be helpwith a exit plan the only difference is we want out .
  37. inside a moral kiosk from Canada writes: Evan Gillespie from Canada writes: If it were up to me the government would do 2 things:

    1) Impose trade barriers effective in 1 year that limit the value of imports to within a reasonable percetage of exports for each country of corporate ownership, with exception to the US.
    2) Let them fail.

    As much as auto makers here have failed so to has the government in allowing foreign producers access to our markets that are not reciprocal.

    The erection of trade barriers and the beggar the neighbour approach is what led to the Great Depression. We are too globablized and leaders know it for old style policies to work.

    Your let them fail recommendation makes more sense economically - eg at least let Chrysler fail and be bought up by another. But its not politically savvy is it?
  38. Ontario Man from Canada writes: 'Peter Lucas from langley, Canada writes:

    'So, GM and its unionized workers are asking Canadian taxpayers who are not covered by a pension plan and who have to fend for themselves in retirement to pay tax to support their gold-plated pensions. That takes a lot of nerve.'

    ----------------------------------------------

    so are the GM workers the only ones who have suffered losses in their planned retirement funds, I think not

    most, if not all, workers with RRSPs also have a bleak future retirement - where is the taxpayer money for them
  39. J Hanner from London, Ontario, Canada writes: Honestly. Anyone that can do basic math knew for decades that these pension funds and the Big 3 economics were not sound mathematically and were not stable business models. So who is really surprised that this has all come about now?

    So how did this all come about you ask? Simple. Take a look back at all the management and CEO's etc. and you will see examples of 'labour peace at any cost' and 'we will leave it for the next administration to deal with' attitude. That is exactly what happened and that is exactly what you have today.

    All 3 of the automakers will HAVE to seek protection under the bankruptcy code to shed all these legacy costs and to re-do the Union agreements. There is simply no other way.
  40. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: Too Bad, So Sad. File for bankruptcy protection, take pay and benefit cuts. Don't get paid full pay for being in EI or extended sick leave. Pension contributions have to increase at the EMPLOYEE level. Either suck it up or get used to dog food and crackers. As many other posters have put it quite eloquently, DON'T EXPECT PEOPLE MAKING A LOT LESS WITH LESS BENEFITS TO BAIL OUT YOU CORPORATE AND UNION PIGS!!!
  41. Just Me from Canada writes: Thanks BOB RAE for signing this under your watch as Premier of Ontario ... yet another reason why you should not be the leader of any political party!
  42. Blaque Jacque Shallaque from Canada writes: This is basically blackmail.

    'Prop us up so that you don't have to pay our pension promises. '

    Utter robbery! This is the final straw! I am totally outraged.

    Time to cut the car makers loose. No more support for anything. Survive or die. Fat paycheques for unionized workers and incompetent managers alike, on the Ontario taxpayer tab have to stop RIGHT NOW!
  43. Sero Sed Serio from Canada writes: Let em fail. Nobody is looking after me in telecom, either in protecting my job or my pension. CAW won't make any concessions? ... then that's the nail in the coffin.
  44. Jennifer R from Ottawa, Canada writes: Before any goverment gives the Big 3 money, they should make the CEOs & all other top executives sign over their golden parachute pensions to make up the shortfall. If they want govermental help they should be made to hurt as much as the small workers. Of course that will never happen because the Union heads (how much do they get paid, what's their pension like), the executives & the goverment are all in bed together. They all scratch each others backs. We little people are then forced ot pay more taxes to make up for the incomptency of those in charge.
  45. Don Adams The Centrist Conservative from Canada writes: I'm amazed..... no comments from Nurse Wilkie blaming the pension shortfall on Harper! :-)
  46. J C from somewhere, Canada writes: Your right let them go bankrupt. Lets just bail out the finacials. Politicians, heads of banks and a few unscrupulus hedge fund managers, traders who made gazillions. How does that make you feel......idiot.
  47. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: GM employees will have to accept lower pensions, maybe 50% less.
    Excessive Union demands have eroded the fund, therefore you have already been living on your pension these past years.

    I recall a few years back, the B.C. teachers pension fund was seriously underfunded because of serious management errors. No bailout then, they just had to suck it up.
  48. michael moore from toronto, Canada writes: The question is not whether the government picks up after the failure of the pension plans. We know that is going to happen. The quetion is whether we go on pouring in more money fruitlessly until the companies fail, which they will.
  49. The Real PS from Canada writes: Has anyone tracked the drop in sales at GM and Chrysler with their decision to stop leasing?
  50. Smokezz from Southern Ontario from Canada writes: Another SARS... I mean Bird Flu... I mean bash the automakers article! Awesome.
  51. Crusty Curmudgeon from Ottawa, Canada writes:

    Don't worry, the executives will still walk away with small fortunes based on the only contracts that matter to them ... namely their severance packages -- which collectively will be in the billions, while we, the unwashed and ignorant masses pay for it.
  52. Tex Pitfield from Atlanta, United States Outlying writes: There is one large question that has yet to be asked, or answered for that matter. What kind of third rate money managers were they using that would have their equity exposure as high as it was.

    Only a fool, (and there are apparently a great number of them) would not have seen this market sell off coming. To have that sort of exposure to equities is simply incompetent. They should have had the majority of the funds in fixed assets.

    That is the problem when you have 30 year old children with no experience or foresight running billion dollar portfolio's.

    And why are we having to pay for this? Because we have incompetent politicians making the decisions. None have them have any qualifications to run a business, yet they are dolling out cash faster than they can count it.

    Good for us, we deserve it.
  53. George Smith from Canada writes: Interesting reading this morning - sounds like the typical group of bitter and jealous of losers that don't consider what happens if the big three fail.

    One auto industry job equals up to seven related jobs as well as a massive government handout in welfare and UI, not to mention much bigger equalization payments.

    But I guess this has all been thought out by the cowboys here.

    We will all lose big if they fail. This situation is an opportunity to get them to go in the right direction where we will all benefit.

    Of course reasonable people will see it that way. Not the anarchists here.
  54. slapdash dapoint from trawnana, Canada writes: perhaps if canadians had an actual Conservative party to vote into gov't, we wouldn't be watching taxpayer money shot out of our accounts and into those of companies and unions who have milked the cow for decades.

    i'm done. i'm looking for another country to settle in.
  55. Blaque Jacque Shallaque from Canada writes: George Smith - the failure of the the North American auto industry in its present state is completely inevitable and predictable.

    The only issue is how much longer we continue to pour money down this black hole.
  56. pole cat from Canada writes: George Smith so how do you think this should be addressed,You think the tax payers should be on the hook for mismanagement and greedy union bosses?
  57. John Doucette from manotick, Canada writes: This is pending disaster the result of the economic acumen, the intelligence and good taste, of all three major political parties. I demand a constitutional amendment requiring that immediately after each election, all politicians, both winners and losers, be shot!!
  58. Allan b from Canada writes: If as they said a company this size can`t fail if and when it does fail is another reason why more money should not be given to it . It will be like a sinking ship as it sinks it will suck everything down with it.
  59. hugh grant from Canada writes:
    Umm, Yeah, I think that the Gov't should bail them out, it will set a good precident for when I want to retire and my pension fund (my RRSP ) is insufficient to provide me with a fully indexed pension. Because you know the Gov't can just print money at the mint......

    GEEZ Give me a break, There is legislation that requires companies to make up pension shortfalls over a 5 year period. Invariably the Co's cite special circumstances to fund this deficit over alonger period.- and sometimes they get premission to do so. BUT lets not kid ourselves the reason the GM FUnd is bust is because the CAW has demanded WAY TOO much out of the Car Co's over the past couple of decades........ and now it is comming home to roost. NO GOV'T (read taxpayer, ie. you and me paying for it) Bailout for any uneconomic business or sector.
  60. Winter of Discontent from Ottawa, Canada writes: Well, it appears the Liberals of Chretien & Martin have destroyed us.

    They passed stupid legislation and approved the concept that the car makers were impossible to fail. How idiotic is that? Allowing revised pension rules instead of making them abide like any other company... what a mess.

    Another great reason we do not need a lib gov't for a few decades, as it will take that long to dig out of the hole they made for the country.

    Watch out folks, unless the US gov't does a bailout (not likely), then the economy is about to sink even lower. Say goodbye to Oshawa, Windsor, Chatham, Hamilton, the list goes on of auto jobs and related jobs.
  61. 4Cryin Outloud from Canada writes: I am always amazed at how people want to find someone to blame for their victimization. You are not victims. You are the co-creators of your life people. How many of you supported NAFTA and the free trade lies? The myth that your life was getting better and that it would be sustainable? Why does it take hitting a brick wall before we take the time to look at the consequences of what we are doing? This could be the opportunity we need to change the way we do business, the way we elect our governments, to examine the way we consume unsustainable amounts of our planets resources, to stop and think about what kind of environment WE want to live in and how to go about attaining that. We can decide this is insufferable or we can make conscious changes that allow us all to live better, happier lives. Lets do it collectively and stop blaming really bad choices by really ignorant individuals that you agreed to give your personal decision-making powers to. Take back your power to make decisions for your own future, our country and our planet. Having less stuff can be freeing and is not a bad thing.
  62. Lane Myers from Canada writes: The hand writing is on the wall here and it is obvious that a bailout will not save GM.

    Apparently they mismanaged their pension fund as badly as the other aspects of their operations. Now it seems taxpayers will be asked not only to cover a bailout of their operation, but their their pension plan as well. A taxpayer bailout of GM is a waste of taxes that could be better spent elsewhere.
  63. klaus mayers from lund, Canada writes: lets all encourage the liberals to elect bob rae to be their new comrade to lead them into political oblivion.(it wont take much more for this to happen)
    as a selfemployed i have to pay all my drugs,dental,visioncare etc. out of my own pocket. i am semiretiered now, and i have NO rrsp. when i turned about 50 i invested only in gic. a little less return, but in the long run very profitable, i sleep in peace, i have no compassion for those militant unionist with their gimme gimme gimme battle cries. let them work for a once in their lives. and by work i mean not just to be there-but be productive. i can train a gorilla to install for example the wheels on a car. at the end of the day my cost for this valued employee would be a basket full of bananas- a far cry from what a autoworker received. dont get me wrong,i am all for decent wages and job security. but it has to be in the context of what ea. employee has contributed and not for how long a person managed to show up
  64. Don Adams The Centrist Conservative from Canada writes: R. Carriere. I watched the CEO's as well. NOT impressed...... now feel we should just leave the Big 3 to their fate. I hope the Senate feels the same.

    Yeah, will hurt a lot of people if they go down..... the ones OUTSIDE the CAW we can protect through higher EI payments.... the money will at least be spent, circulated, rather than just going into someone's account and sitting there. CAW members? let their union come up with extra to shield them.

    The car companies WILL come out of bankruptcy protection leaner and meaner, and WILL be back ro building cars..... but this time, they'll be competitive.... be building cars people want.

    For those that whine 1 auto worker job = 7 other jobs. Remember the Tech bubble? When it burst? Everyone survived.
  65. David Jackson from Canada writes: This whole situation is so unbeleivable. For years the auto workers have been crying job security bla, bla, bla and going on strike to get it. Well you got it guys - now you've priced yourselves out of the market and you want the rest of us to bail you out. Did any of your mothers teach you how to suck eggs?
  66. Supreme Ruler Of The Universe from Toronto, Canada writes: One of these days I may pay you earthlings a visit and show you how it's done. In the meantime, scrap those unions, let economic darwinism work out the kinks and let the weak die so the strong may prosper.

    PS: As a Lexus owner (when I assume mortal form) I can't imagine why anyone would want to drive a 'Big 3' P.O.S. when Canadian-made Toyota and Honda products are far superior.
  67. David Simon from Canada writes: The CAW is a co-trustee of the pension plan. If a single retiree misses a penny in payments, shouldn't the CAW be sued?
  68. Reid Finlayson from toronto, Canada writes: I'm afraid that by forcing the big three into chapter 11 we will effectively be putting them out of business. Think about it. Would you buy a car or truck from a company that's under bankruptcy protection?
  69. greg panke from Canada writes: Do the members of the CAW still get supplementary unemployment benefits when they are laid off? The plan that sees them get EI as it is call now and more money from the car company until they reach 95% of their regular income to stay home. I know they won't be getting it for much longer but they certainly did in the past. That was another boondoggle the unions and car companies pulled on the rest of us. Did any other business have a similar program?
  70. Gogh Forit from Canada writes: 4cryin out loud: NAFTA did not cause this present crisis. If this were the case why is the financial crisis global in scope. The answer for the big 3 is Chapter 11. It will allow them to operate while staving off creditors. As for their employee pension plan, many other opinions have certainly pointed out the corporate, union and political decisions over the past twenty years that led to this particular mess.
    Congress was not sympathetic to their plight and while Democrats take over the houses in January, it is doubtful that suddenly there will be billions of taxpayer dollars to hand over to American automakers.
  71. Ian D. Niall (who is staunchly apolitical) from Right here, Canada writes: Don Adams The Centrist Conservative from Canada writes: 'I'm amazed..... no comments from Nurse Wilkie blaming the pension shortfall on Harper! :-) '

    Behave yourself! ;-)
  72. Bruce Hansen from Canada writes: pehaps a tax strike is in order
  73. farm boy from Canada writes: the sky is falling, the sky is falling........so the exsecutives of the auto ind. would have us think. auto exsec's. need to get a life...on some other planet.
  74. C. Beresford Tipton from Canada writes: No more public money for private corporations.
  75. just a tax paying citizen from Canada writes: No taxpayer money to bail out the auto sector and the CAW workers, period!

    Let the auto companies file for bankruptcy protection and reorganize themselves. If they do that they can throw out their collective agreements and start from scratch.

    Remember what Massey Ferguson did to the Canadian taxpayer -- the same thing is going to happen here. Taxpayers get shafted while unions whine and auto execs get big paydays.

    Just say NO to auto bailouts!
  76. Mike G from Canada writes: Those of us who are self employed and have to look after our own retirement planning would also like the Government to guarentee that out retirement investments are never going to drop below 80% of their projected values. Then I'll think about why my tax dollars are going to subsidize GM workers.
  77. Grey Griffin from Ottawa, Canada writes: It looks like GM is going to shaft the Canadian taxpayer one way or another.
  78. Gronck the realist from Canada writes: Het I want the governemtn to backstop my RRSP; We have to 'get real'!!!!
  79. Tim Cares from Canada writes: So just what would happen if each CAW worker took $10/hr less.
    I think there would be more mortgage defaults and our financial institutions would be in the same situation that the US ones are. And through no fault of their own.
    Housing prices would plummet in some cities. Is this good for the economy?
  80. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: R. Carriere mentioned watching the hearing. They were aired on CPAC. I noted the obvious discomfort when the auto CEOs were asked about deferring their salaries to illustrate empathy with the public that they, also, were willing to feel the pain.
    Out-sourcing, down-sizing and off-shoring have become common practice in this economy.
    Hopefully the working family will be considered when working through this global economic disaster.
  81. D BARTA from Canada writes: -

    - If the big 3 go tyres up and you union bashers and whiners get what you have been wishing for - you will still be on here looking for someone else to blame.....

    -
  82. Mike M from Canada writes: Winston Smith from Canada writes: There aren't too many pension funds that are fully funded at this stage of the bear market with the exception of those belonging to politicians and public sector employees (taxpayer backstopped).
    ====================================================
    I agree, take a look at the PSAC website and the their whining because Canada Post expects their members to actually justify sick leave unlike the PSAC platinum club members who work for the Federal Government who can just get a sick note and live off the taxpayers.
    Also I don't see the big mouth ex-CAW member who was on here last week lecturing and boasting that his pension was protected 100% even if GM goes out of business.
  83. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Don Adams writes: R. I watched the CEO's as well. NOT impressed....
    ---
    Don: I could NOT believe some of the CEO's answers such as, ' I haven't been in the job that long so....'

    Unfortunately, anyone with the least bit of logic will realize it is only time before at least one of the Detroit three is bankrupt.

    As mentioned, the NA market will drop from 17 million autos to 11 Million this year. The Detroit 3 market share continues to shrink, and they will have us to believe that $25 Billion will save them? The CEO's want us to believe demand will rebound to 15 Million vehicles in 2010.

    Contrary to popular belief, the Detroit 3 are making very good cars...and that will hamper them also, as people will hold on to their vehicle even longer. Add that to the millions losing their jobs( just yesterday 25,000 at CitiBank..) and demand will wane for at least 3-5 years!

    It looks like a hopeless situation for the Detroit 3.

    Then this: The one item that was troubling was when it was stated that when the plants are 'idle, workers continued to receive 95% of their wages NOT to work! When pressed for details, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger was elusive...
    .
  84. Anthony B from Maritimes, Canada writes: For various reasons the Big Three have shown themselves to be unsustainable. Pumping public money into them isn't going to change that.

    Let them die and don't be fooled by their doom and gloom scare tactics. People will always need personal transportation (just not GMs or Fords) so Toyota or Honda will see an increased demand for their products and new jobs will follow to replace the ones lost at the Big Three..
  85. greg panke from Canada writes: Tim Cares; in most other industries the employees never got close to making what the CAW members receive, a $10.00 per hour reduction would not make up the difference in income. If the CAW and management had decided to work together to make their business stronger instead of trying to grab all the short term benefits they could, this problem would not be happening. Unfortunately it is too late to turn the clocks back 30 years. CAW members made a lot more money than people with their average level of education normally earn; the big paycheque times are over, not just for them but for many Canadians, the CAW was fortunate to last this long. I expect the Ontario government will have to make a u-turn of sorts on the guaranteed pensions just like the Feds did with income trusts if the 'Big 3' go down the tubes.
  86. Ob Server from Canada writes: The only solution for these carmakers is a Chapter 11 filing which would allow them to re-open all contracts including the exorbitant union contracts and bring costs, ALL costs DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY. Turn 3 companies into 2 companies, jetison all the baggage, close plants and change production processes etc. There is no inconsistency there because they can continue to operate just as the airlines have done over and over. Giving them $25Billion is just opening the spigots people....it is NOT the solution because it's not enough, not by a longshot. I don't necessarily want them to fail but I do want them to change their ways forever and start being smart managers. Get rid of the CEO's and their lackeys including the boards and put in some real, objective and capable management. It is painfully obvious from yesterday's begging session that these CEO's and their current teams simply do not have the intellectual capacity to understand and fix the problems once and for all. The fix has to be in and it has to be ruthless otherwise millions will in fact lose their jobs. They created this mess due to their inability to manage and compete. The financial crisis is just an aggravating factor....not the cause of the trouble they are in. No bailout.
  87. Raymond P from Canada writes: I have no RSPs or company pension. I refused to be sucked into this crock. It has been known for years that the majority of private pensions plans were underfunded. But no one cared because of the bull market. Now that we are in a bullsh*t market peoples' futures are in doubt. Banks pressure people to buy RSPs like they're a guarantee. 'If you invest $20 per week from age 20, by the time you are 65 you have $1.6 million dollars.' What is not mentioned is, 'If there is a market collapse you can kiss your retirement and savings goodbye.' Banks, government and money sucking corporations; it's hard telling the difference between them.

    Harper, rather than present a prudent government during the worst recession since the 30s, increases the size of the Cabinet. Banks make millions in profit year after year but when one quarter is down they raise fees everywhere. Automakers? Let them collapse and new ones take their place.
  88. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: D BARTA from Canada writes: -

    - If the big 3 go tyres up and you union bashers and whiners get what you have been wishing for - you will still be on here looking for someone else to blame.....
    ===================================================
    You must have spent too much time on the line. No one is looking to blame anyone. Everyone is saying let them go belly up and no gov't cash. The offshore will rev up production, there will be some NA component, a few less union pigs at the trough and life will go on. Combined market value of Ford & GM about $3.5 billion. Won't even make a dent in the stock market.
  89. Raymond P from Canada writes: It is suggested that CAW members take a pay cut. I agree, on the condition that every single executive work at the same rate as a person on the floor until such time as the companies are back in the black. However, they cannot arrange for future salary increases to offset the losses during this period. So the CEO of Bombardier would be limited to a wage of about $20 per hour. He wouldn't have enough money to pay the taxes on his private island or fly his helicopter to town. Too bad, so sad.
  90. Frank Enstein from Canada writes: I have a shortfall in my RRSP- which government department can I apply to cover part of my shortfall? Is this a democracy or Government by the people for only part of the people? Why is government on the hook to pay part of auto workers pensions? Enough of special priveleges for the connected few! Time for the people to take back their democracy from special interests and the well connected! Taxpayers of the nation - Unite!
  91. Ontario Man from Canada writes: Air Canada went bankrupt and operations continued unhindered. They did not lay off all their pilots, cabin staff and mechanics.

    Bankruptcy is a legal process to protect a corporation from creditors while it undergoes restructuring. In this case, I think it is exactly what the big 3 need.
  92. Rodney Gibson from Kitchener, Canada writes: A major problem today is that the companies are simply smarter than the media and the government.
    The companies (in this case the auto industry) see the opportunity for a handout and start the engines roaring. You can't blame them. Their purpose is to make money and if they can use the government and public funds to do that they will.
    The media because of the '24 hour news cycle' is continually looking for 'angles' to create news and sell copy. They are after all for-profit businesses.

    If we start with the premise that the economy is worsening and things are going to get tougher, then everyone should understand that there has to be some sacrifice- even from the innocent.

    Okay so what am I missing here.
    If the article is correct in the math, and nothing is done by the government, the pensioner who was getting $3,000 a month will now get $2,600 a month. That's not so bad compared to the people losing their jobs and their homes.

    Besides, these pensions don't have to liquidate. Many of those stocks will rise again and many stocks will do better. So in the medium term how big is the whole. and why do we need to do anything now
  93. Regina Phallange from Canada writes: As an airline employee (not AC), I know that the goverment would never come to the aid of my employer should we ever need it.
    But, from the other side of things, I know that the auto and its related industries provide a lot of our passengers.
    Simply put, help for the auto sector is indirect help for airlines and a lot of other companies as well.
    I'm not necessarily against giv